Eng in Pak, Oct 7-28

[alfie]

The good thing is the series is alive - which after that one sided first game is something.

The bad thing is England seem not to be improving in the business of playing on pitches which aid the spinners (this one went a bit excessively so , not surprising after going for 9 days use !) But they do need to get a better plan than just indiscriminately sweeping everything with the odd dance down the pitch...because you can bet Pakistan will be making sure the next pitch is dry and crumbly from the start

I think that is a very rare event : two bowlers taking all twenty wickets between them in a Test Match. Laker and Lock in 1956 comes to mind but can't have been too many more ?

[sussexpob]

Yeah...Duckett is a bit of an enigma to me . He averages 41 , with his consistently very aggressive approach - he hardly ever leaves a ball and doesn't even block too many : at times I think he is riding his luck a bit and will come a cropper soon but the figures remain strong , with some big scores against all types of bowling - and the first innings here was a terrific knock , on a pitch which seemed to magically change from bland to spitting cobra as soon as he got out So I suppose he might say he was only doing what he always does and it just went wrong this time

Stealing a line from golf, I think its a classic case of England not having "course management". Regardless of where they land off the tee, its straight at the flag next shot even when the odds are stacked high. And of course, what you find is that then there is no wind, the sun shines, they are striking it well, etc etc... they can take on those risks and get value from them, because the "risk" in real terms might be 55-45, and they back their ability to cover that extra risk for reward. But against a big spinning ball 1 overs old that is harder and bounces higher, we aren't talking about 55-45 risk.

Playing cross bat shots against the direction of prodigious spin, to a harder ball that bounces a little more..... thats akin to smashing your tee shot into the trees, then whipping out your driver and trying to smash through branches at a green 250 yards away covered in water hazards.... risk is 95-5.... you might get away with it once or twice, but aren't beating the bandit on these odds.

Even the most suicidally aggressive golfer isn't just chipping out at that point.

[sussexpob]

I think this series is pretty indicative of where Bazball has finally taken us. I get the feeling England are a tough proposition in conditions that suit their dominate brand of cricket, but their inability to do the hard years means we have reached the threshold for the team. I very much doubt this side will ever win an away Ashes or India playing like this, you simply don't get the conditions that suit you enough to consistently beat top teams away (well or home, because we didn't win the Ashes either). It doesnt surprise me England crushed Pakistan on a road, and lost 18 wickets for 250 runs on a pitch that did something. It feels very current England.

I think some tough choices have to be made, because lets be honest - do we currently have a team that have proven to be good enough to challenge the best? Looking at the batting....

Zak Crawley will play his 50th test next week - he averages 32. That average is boosted by 68 against the world's worst test side (Ireland) and 61 against the current 9th worst test side (Pakistan). He averages 40 vs Australia, and then has a rubbish record against everyone else. Dig even deeper, he scored 267 v Pakistan who had to play an away series in arguably the toughest conditions ever faced in Covid lockdown. He scored a 100 on a road in Rawalpindi. Even inside that low 32 average, it feels his wins can be qualified. He's improved, but his form is starting to turn. Can we win against quality teams with him there?

Duckett as well..... 182 average v Ireland, roads in Paksitan he scored runs, runs against WI.... against the top half of the test championship teams he averaged around 30, and has a horrific record against India.

Pope.... in 18 tests against the best two sides in the world he averages 15 and 26. Averages 206 v Ireland, scored runs against WI. Only team in the top 7 he has a good record against is SA, he is below test standard vs anyone but the very worst sides.

Brook..... Scores runs on flat pitches, averages mid 30s in England when the ball moves.

[sussexpob]

Guess it wont be a popular take. Reading the press, one would assume England are going through some historical form. One paper in England described their first test win as "another win for unstoppable England". Our current WTC round win percentage is 43%, we dont hold the Ashes and got firebombed in India... hardly a historical achieving team is it?

Its a strange atmosphere with this England side. They seem to have got a lot of support in the press.... Nasser Hussain for instance wrote an article this test claiming Ben Duckett was one of the great sweepers of the ball in history of cricket.

He got out comically playing a slog sweep shot for nowt in the second innings, and averages 20 in BD and 27 in India... and scored runs on 2 of the top 10 flattest wickets ever, but not much else. Nas thinks hes as good as Lara.... total nonsense

[Arthur Crabtree]

England took years to assemble a batting line up even as good as this one. 3-4 years ago it was Root plus a changing line up of deadbeats. Brook has been successful- mid 30s is great compared with what went before, and that's just a snapshot of one set of conditions. Maybe ok to consider the position of the weakest link. But then England had someone in for Crawley v SL and it was a washout.

[alfie]

Yes it is easy to take a bit of a gloomy view of England despite a pretty decent recent record...I have had similar thoughts about a lot of the batting ; though one could make a reasonable argument that in other than very spin friendly conditions they are pretty good if not exactly Strauss Cook Trott Pietersen Bell class... It is probably fair to say that they badly need to get a better plan for Asian conditions , but since they aren't back in India for a fair while this possibly won't be front of mind ?

Oddly enough I wonder if in fact they might do better than expected in Australia : pitches here are often quite flattish and they are highly unlikely to encounter anything like Multan ! I have serious doubts about Pope at three ; but I think Crawley may actually prosper - and if Duckett can handle the bounce he might also be able to provide the sort of start that is so important down here. Root , Brook , Stokes...should be fine , though I suspect Brook will cop a bit of a short pitched barrage - more to invite a false shot than to intimidate. Smith is off to a good start though much tougher tests than the ones he's faced so far await : if they can get a fit fast bowling group together I won't rule out a far more competitive series next year . Not sure Australia aren't going to be a little less formidable either , with Warner gone , Khawaja not getting any younger , Smith a bit up and down - and the fast bowling contingent also with a lot of miles and years behind them. We will see...

Did Nasser really compare Duckett with Lara ???

[sussexpob]

England took years to assemble a batting line up even as good as this one. 3-4 years ago it was Root plus a changing line up of deadbeats. Brook has been successful- mid 30s is great compared with what went before, and that's just a snapshot of one set of conditions. Maybe ok to consider the position of the weakest link. But then England had someone in for Crawley v SL and it was a washout.

I am loathe to use this as indicative of anything, because England under Flower developed into an insular unit suspicious of anything coming from the outside, and players performances became ancillary to passing Flower's own tests which often put mental capacity over any technical skill. Aside from Dom Sibley, did England pick anyone in that dark batting period that actually represented the best player performing in CC?

You had weird things like where Denly was picked, but outperformed by Sam Northeast at the same county. Malan was being outpeformed by Gubbins. Westley was being out performed by everyone at Essex, but I cannot think why Flower's formula decided Nick Browne from Working class Leytonstone averaging 20 runs more that season was a worse pick that Tom "Cambridge and Durham University" Westley... Jason Roy got a test before about 4 Surrey players regularly playing before him.

Even going back a little further, Hales and Buttler got picked about 2 years before James Vince.... there was one stage Buttler was not playing FC cricket, and James Vince had scored 3000 CC runs in nearly 2 years, and Buttler was in the team as a specialist bat. And then, after making a player wait for 3 years and playing a guy who can't be bothered to turn up for FC cricket, all while saying James Vince was a big softy, we wonder why players get a chance and look totally a shadow of themselves.

So for me its meaningless.

[Slipstream]

My team for Rawalpindi

1 Duckett
2 Crawley
3 Stokes
4 Root
5 Brook
6 Smith
7 Carse
8 Ahmed
9 Potts
10 Leach
11 Bashir

Need to win the toss and bat. Ahmed got 7 wickets at 19.57 in Karachi. I imagine the pitch in Rawalpindi will be like last time when we made 657 batting first.

[andy]

Can't have stokes at 3 his battings gone off a cliff

[Arthur Crabtree]

They need to make a decision on the bowling with 2+2, 3+1 or 1+3. Then use Stokes in support. I think. Rather than overload the bowling.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Is Atkinson not coming back? I thought he was being rested.

[alfie]

Imagine Atkinson will be back after his rest. Though I guess the attack makeup will depend on what they think of the pitch. It probably won't be as "weathered" as this last pitch , not having had an extra 5 days play on it ! But no doubt Pakistan will want it as helpful as possible for their spinners so we will see what is produced.

Carse was very good in this last match but he's bowled a lot of overs in these two games. How will he pull up ? They need to get it right (unlike the end of the home series with Sri Lanka where Atkinson was clearly a bit fatigued and didn't have his usual impact with the ball) Hard to see Rehan fitting in the side unless they were to jettison Pope for an extra bowler - though if this were another spin-dizzy that might actually be a good move !

Important test for England in that they've lost 2 of their last three games after a good home run ; and need to allay fears that they are (a) too prone to messing up through overconfidence and (b) inept against spin bowling on other than true roads. Plus of course a series to win...

[sussexpob]

It probably won't be as "weathered" as this last pitch , not having had an extra 5 days play on it ! But no doubt Pakistan will want it as helpful as possible for their spinners so we will see what is produced.

You will be glad to know that the top 3 flattest wickets recorded in the last 20 years of test cricket have all been at Rawalpindi after Pakistan started hosting tests again.....

I am expecting a Road

[alfie]

It probably won't be as "weathered" as this last pitch , not having had an extra 5 days play on it ! But no doubt Pakistan will want it as helpful as possible for their spinners so we will see what is produced.

You will be glad to know that the top 3 flattest wickets recorded in the last 20 years of test cricket have all been at Rawalpindi after Pakistan started hosting tests again.....

I am expecting a Road

Yeah I knew that. But I expect they have been out with the rakes and sledgehammers this week

To be honest I don't much like "roads" anyway - even if they facilitate England wins like the First Test. But we will see what we get...it is probably about due for England to win a toss anyway !

[Arthur Crabtree]

I like a lot of bowling options, especially in hot conditions. But beyond a point, it exposes indecision.