Euro 2024

[sussexpob]

Sounds like Trent will start alongside Rice, which will push Bellingham further forward.

Only Gareth Southgate could dream up playing a right back who cannot defend to save his life out of position at DM. Trent is a great attacking full back who can cross a ball as well as anyone, but a DM ?

Jesus Christ this guy inhabits a different planet.

[Gingerfinch]

Sounds like Trent will start alongside Rice, which will push Bellingham further forward.

Only Gareth Southgate could dream up playing a right back who cannot defend to save his life out of position at DM. Trent is a great attacking full back who can cross a ball as well as anyone, but a DM ?

Jesus Christ this guy inhabits a different planet.

I reckon Trent will occupy the space between Rice and Bellingham. Trent can move the ball quickly and is long range passing is immense but can he play there against the likes of France?

[sussexpob]

I reckon Trent will occupy the space between Rice and Bellingham. Trent can move the ball quickly and is long range passing is immense but can he play there against the likes of France?

Trent is the classic Steven Gerrard type passer. The one per week he sends from distance that doesnt sail out for a throw on makes MOTD, the rest are forgotten. Ranking passing by FBREF/Opta stats in 23/24 season.

204th Overall
202nd on long range passes
199th on medium distance.

So no, he is not immense. He is actually one of the worst passers in the league from all ranges.

Just FYI, his ranks in other key stats for Full backs....

Rank 1 for all outfield players (2nd overall) for defensive errors
Rank 4 overall for those errors costing his side a goal
Rank 1 for worst tackle won percentage of all defenders in the league... he fails to win the ball in a staggering 71 PERCENT of times
Very high on rankings for balls lost when dribbling, and also one of he highest incidents of unenforced errors when miscontrolling the ball and losing it.

So, to sum up...

He's the worst tackling defender in the league, who can't pass, often makes errors, doesnt have great control, and is below average at running into space.

Just the type of play you want as a midfield general who needs to tackle like a machine and will be getting the ball under heavy pressing and in tight spaces.

[Gingerfinch]

I reckon Trent will occupy the space between Rice and Bellingham. Trent can move the ball quickly and is long range passing is immense but can he play there against the likes of France?

Trent is the classic Steven Gerrard type passer. The one per week he sends from distance that doesnt sail out for a throw on makes MOTD, the rest are forgotten. Ranking passing by FBREF/Opta stats in 23/24 season.

204th Overall
202nd on long range passes
199th on medium distance.

So no, he is not immense. He is actually one of the worst passers in the league from all ranges.

Just FYI, his ranks in other key stats for Full backs....

Rank 1 for all outfield players (2nd overall) for defensive errors
Rank 4 overall for those errors costing his side a goal
Rank 1 for worst tackle won percentage of all defenders in the league... he fails to win the ball in a staggering 71 PERCENT of times
Very high on rankings for balls lost when dribbling, and also one of he highest incidents of unenforced errors when miscontrolling the ball and losing it.

So, to sum up...

He's the worst tackling defender in the league, who can't pass, often makes errors, doesnt have great control, and is below average at running into space.

Just the type of play you want as a midfield general who needs to tackle like a machine and will be getting the ball under heavy pressing and in tight spaces.

Are these stats based on completion? Anyone can pass it sideways. Get Harry Winks in the side, I'm sure his stats are better!!!

[Gingerfinch]

I agree he's not the best at defending. Given he's not, he must be good at something, like passing!!!!!!!!!!

[sussexpob]

I agree he's not the best at defending. Given he's not, he must be good at something, like passing!!!!!!!!!!

Its based on percentage of passes attempts to completion, but I acknowledge it can be a misleading stat is he is throwing a lot of high risk/high rewards passes in.

Nevertheless, he's bang out of form. Last few months Liverpool have been defensively weak, and one of the reasons why they faded in the championship. One of the lasting memories of the season will be Calvert-Lewin continually annihilating him at Goodison when Liverpool's title hopes were crushed, and Trent was taken off and started crying on the bench. I think even he knew he'd stunk the place up that night... the second goal he may as well of had a picnic cloth spread out and been sunbathing, he just sat marking an empty space and watch DCL power the header into the net.

At his best, hes a really dangerous attacking full back with a knack for swinging in a brilliant cross or two, but at the moment you are getting a lot of defensive blunders with not much else.

If he isn't good enough to push for a place at full-back, then playing him out of position in an area all his weaknesses are exposed is just flat out madness. A high risk move considering the options we have to play in that position.

[bigfluffylemon]

I think you're being pretty generous to Steve McLaren if you think Taylor is the only manager of the last 40 years worse than Southgate...

International management is a lot about the luck you are handed at the time you manage. McClaren had Aaron Lennon, Gareth Barry, Shaun Wright Phillips and Owen after two consecutive near career ending injuries.... Southgate has Kane, Foden, Saka and Bellingham. England current B team, aside from 3 odd players from that McClaren team, who would start for England back then. Even guys like Jack Grealish would walk into that team, and they arent good enough to get into a 26 man squad.

That's disingenous in the extreme. And it's not relevant the relative strengths of the teams between now and then. McLaren had those players. He also had Rooney, J Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Carrick, Beckham, A Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, and inherited a team that had just come from a WC QF and were within the FIFA top 10 rankings, and top seed in their Euro qualifying group. A few months after England failed to qualify for Euro 2008 the Champions League final was contested by Manchester United and Chelsea whose starting line-ups, between them, had 10 England qualified players, and that doesn't include Gerrard. They were by any reasonable measure among the best players in Europe. Either side of him managers took basically the same players to WC knockouts. Capello took over and England went undefeated in their next qualifying campaign. There is no way a squad with that much talent should have failed to even qualify for the tournament, even if they aren't as good as today's squad.

McLaren did fine at club level, but he was hopeless as an international manager. While Southgate is constantly harrangued for underperformance when he took us to within a single penalty kick of the first trophy in a generation.

But it's not just my opinion. Find me a single pundit or other reasonably knowledgable opinion (rather than an anti-Southgate rant on reddit) who reckons McLaren is anything other than worst or second-worst in the all-time England manager rankings, or better than Southgate.

[bigfluffylemon]

Ok, not undefeated, but 9-1. But thrashed the same Croatia who knocked us out 12 months prior...

[sussexpob]

That's disingenous in the extreme. And it's not relevant the relative strengths of the teams between now and then. McLaren had those players. He also had Rooney, J Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Carrick, Beckham, A Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, and inherited a team that had just come from a WC QF and were within the FIFA top 10 rankings, and top seed in their Euro qualifying group

-David Beckham retired after the 2006 WC initally. He only played the second half of the last qualifier after u-turning on his decision.
-Owen Hargreaves broke his leg after the 2006 WC, an injury he himself says ruined his career. He was only fit enough to be available for one game - a friendly v Andorra.
- JCole broke his foot in the 2006-07 season and missed 6 months. By the time England got to the crunch group games in 2007-08, he had started only 5 games in 11 months for Chelsea and was not fit.
-Michael Carrick was such a great player, no subsequent manager ever picked him for a major tournament. He only played 12 competitive games for England in a 12 year career.
-Lampard and Gerrard famously could not play in the same team, so you can discount one. I invite you to see my previous comments about Gerrard, who I consider the most overrated player in the history of football.
-Ashley Cole also had injury troubles and started only 20 games for Chelsea in 06/07 - he missed the key qualifiers at the end.
-Rio Ferdinand also missed a couple of games, including the last crunch games
-Wayne Rooney was only 20 years old.
- John Terry started only 7 games in 07/08 upto March. Broke his foot... missed both the last qualifiers. Probably worth noting he was arguably not good enough to have previously got in the team ahead of Ferdinand and Sol Campbell at their peaks.

Other than that, Gary Neville missed the whole season through injury and basically was never the same player again.

[sussexpob]

So yeah... England's team when they lost to Russia

Paul Robinson
Micah Richards (who was 18/19 in that season)
Joleon Lescott
Sol Campbell (sold by Arsenal a season before because he was no longer a top player... would drop to League Two within 12 months)
Rio Ferdinand
Gareth Barry
Steven Gerrard
Shaun Wright Phillips
Joe Cole (as mentioned, could barely run)
Michael Owen (He only played 3 games for his club side that year due to injury - he could also barely run)
Wayne Rooney

Englands team when they lost to Croatia

Scott Carson (who ended up at a lower league Turkish side not long after)
Micah Richards
Wayne Bridge (Played only 11 games for Chelsea that year)
Sol Campbell
Joleon Lescott
Gareth Barry
Steven Gerrard
Frank Lampard
Shaun Wright Phillps
Joe Cole
Peter Crouch

Are you seriously trying to argue these teams are comparable to what Southgate has now?

[bigfluffylemon]

That's disingenous in the extreme. And it's not relevant the relative strengths of the teams between now and then. McLaren had those players. He also had Rooney, J Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Carrick, Beckham, A Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, and inherited a team that had just come from a WC QF and were within the FIFA top 10 rankings, and top seed in their Euro qualifying group

-David Beckham retired after the 2006 WC initally. He only played the second half of the last qualifier after u-turning on his decision.
-Owen Hargreaves broke his leg after the 2006 WC, an injury he himself says ruined his career. He was only fit enough to be available for one game - a friendly v Andorra.
- JCole broke his foot in the 2006-07 season and missed 6 months. By the time England got to the crunch group games in 2007-08, he had started only 5 games in 11 months for Chelsea and was not fit.
-Michael Carrick was such a great player, no subsequent manager ever picked him for a major tournament. He only played 12 competitive games for England in a 12 year career.
-Lampard and Gerrard famously could not play in the same team, so you can discount one. I invite you to see my previous comments about Gerrard, who I consider the most overrated player in the history of football.
-Ashley Cole also had injury troubles and started only 20 games for Chelsea in 06/07 - he missed the key qualifiers at the end.
-Rio Ferdinand also missed a couple of games, including the last crunch games
-Wayne Rooney was only 20 years old.
- John Terry started only 7 games in 07/08 upto March. Broke his foot... missed both the last qualifiers. Probably worth noting he was arguably not good enough to have previously got in the team ahead of Ferdinand and Sol Campbell at their peaks.

Other than that, Gary Neville missed the whole season through injury and basically was never the same player again.

Yes, so some players missed qualifiers at the end. Big deal. England should never have been in the position that they were in at the end of the qualifying campaign in the first place. They underperformed through the entire qualifying campaign. The loss to Croatia at the end was just the culmination of it. But then, you criticise Southgate roundly for England losing to Italy in the CL final for not adapting his tactics - why does McLaren get a pass for losing a winnable game at home against Croatia as a result of poor tactics and selection? Scott Carson - universally recognised to have been a moronic pick and one of the reasons England lost to Croatia was because of his errors. Awful decision by McLaren. Mere months later, England thrashed the same Croatia side 4-1 in the next qualifying campaign.

Rooney was 22 and had been an international for 3-4 years at that point, and was widely recognised as one of the best players in the world. Terry captained Chelsea to a Champion's League win. Gerrard did the same for Liverpool (and the 'Lampard/Gerrard' issue didn't stop them playing well enough together under Capello and Sven). Carrick was in a Manchester United side that won the CL and the Premier League - can't have been that bad. But on the other hand, if we was crap, then he was a bad selection - so poor decision by McLaren. Ditto most of the others - they pretty much all won premier leagues and champions leagues. They were proven performers against the best in the world. Except when they put on England shirts. That says poor England management, not bad players.

Both Capello and Sven got far more out of basically the same group of players than McLaren ever did. England should have qualified easily for the 2008 World Cup. They did not. McLaren performed badly as England manager. He even says so himself.

On the other hand, you act as if Southgate was handed a quality England team on a plate - he inherited a team that had just lost to Wales and gone out of the Euros in the second round to Iceland, and featuring such world class talents as Dele Alli, Eric Dier, Daniel Sturridge and Danny Rose. 2 years later England get to a World Cup semi. England's pool of talent didn't magically undergo a total shift in 2 years. Southgate got better results than his predecessors with a similar talent pool. McLaren got worse results than his contemporaries.

And no, I'm not arguing that England had better players in 2008 than now, so stop creating straw men. I'm saying McLaren was a crap manager because England massively underperformed with him at the helm. And before you create another straw man, I'm also not arguing Southgate is amazing or the best ever, or what have you. Just nowhere near the nadirs that Taylor and McLaren represented.

And I'm still waiting for you to provide a single person who actually has a clue about anything that agrees with you on this...

[sussexpob]

Scott Carson - universally recognised to have been a moronic pick and one of the reasons England lost to Croatia was because of his errors.

Who else was there? Rob Green, the man who threw a lame Clint Dempsey shot into his own net in the 2010 WC and never played again? The 40 year old David James who got repicked despite not being able to get a PL contract and having to drop down to the Championship at Bristol City because he was so good? Chris Kirkland and Ben Foster couldn't even get a game at their clubs, let alone England. Joe Hart was loaned out to Tranmere because he wasn't good enough yet to play top level football.

Btw.... it was Paul Robinson who was in goal making those errors against Croatia, not Carson. Robinson was dropped for Carson for it.... later in the year he was also dropped by Spurs as his form fell apart. So all in all, McClaren had to select from a pool containing a near 40 year old who was past his best, two younger players who ended in the championship in their prime, Liverpools reserve goalkeeper who was never fit, Man United's third keeper who went on loan to a Championship team, or a kid who was on loan in League two.

I think we can both agree that the options were a little tragic, no?

[sussexpob]

Rooney was 22 and had been an international for 3-4 years at that point, and was widely recognised as one of the best players in the world.

Up until the point where Tevez left to go to City, Rooney mostly played on the left wing for United in a 4-3-3. Before that Carlos Tevez and Ruud Van Nistelrooy played up top over him. Its not to say that Rooney was not a class player, because that front three with Ronaldo and Tevez was briefly the best in the world until Messi decided to get ridiculous. But the fact is, Rooney was never a prolific scorer until he had a period of a 3 odd seasons at his prime where he barrelled them in for fun.

Arguing that McClaren had a world class 9 in Rooney in 2007 would be a stretch. That season, he scored one more goal than Reading's Dave Kitson (11 v 10). 11 goals isn't setting the world alight is it?

[sussexpob]

On the other hand, you act as if Southgate was handed a quality England team on a plate - he inherited a team that had just lost to Wales and gone out of the Euros in the second round to Iceland, and featuring such world class talents as Dele Alli, Eric Dier, Daniel Sturridge and Danny Rose. 2 years later England get to a World Cup semi. England's pool of talent didn't magically undergo a total shift in 2 years. Southgate got better results than his predecessors with a similar talent pool. McLaren got worse results than his contemporaries.

Daniel Sturridge seemingly got 1 cap under Southgate well before the 2018 WC, its hardly like Southgate relied on him. Eric Dier is sh** I will give you that.

Dele Alli who was voted in the PL team of the season in two consecutive years in the lead up to the 2018 WC, was voted PL young player of the year twice, and who scored 18 goals in his second PL season, a mark that the apparently world beating striker Wayne Rooney took 8 seasons in the PL to beat (and an extra 4-5 years by age on achievement).

Danny Rose also made the PL team of the year twice in the same years. Just for Comparison, Ashley Cole had only managed this feat twice at a much older age when McClaren took over.

Danny Rose and Dele Alli are both players who subsequently suffered mental health illnesses. Their careers fell rapidly at a certain point after 2018. It would foolish to suggest that going into that world cup they were not considered top PL players. The awards tell you all they need... both were league standouts.

[Durhamfootman]

Opta has us as favourites too.

I think you're being pretty generous to Steve McLaren if you think Taylor is the only manager of the last 40 years worse than Southgate...

and Keegan