Euro 2020 (21)

[sussexpob]

A manager who knew more about English football, and assuming he was as gifted as Fabio might have been able to remake the England side. England were poor at that time but a lot of favourites just kept on playing. Terry Venables took over from Graham Taylor. Venables didn't go on picking Carlton Palmer and Geoff Thomas. He promoted and recalled others who had been around but hadn't really been fancied like Batty, Sheringham, Anderton, Ince. OK, not legends, but they were capable of better football than Taylor's favourites. Venables seemed to have an eye for a player. Who were Fabio's picks?

There is a very noticeable and established historical link between exceeding expectations and hosting the tournament, which renders any comparison to Venables very difficult. Playing every game in front of 90,000 screaming fans at Wembley would no doubt have helped England over come a lot of matches that ended them in the past. So it doesnt feel right to compare English players playing at home, to those playing in 40 degree heat and 100 percent humidity of an Amazonian summer day.

Sven made a left field selection in 2006, and got absolutely annihilated for it (Theo Walcott who was 17). I heard him on a podcast a couple of weeks ago in prep for this tournament getting grilled for it even now. It was part of the reason why his position became untenable. He took him, then couldnt risk bringing him on. The press claimed Darren Bent, who had one year of top flight football should have gone. Bent had one year he did well after, got a huge transfer and subsequently turned rubbish. By about 30 he was trawling the lower leagues.

The fact is, there werent any players. This is an era where PL teams are made up of 70 percent foreign players, and where the top teams tend to have close to zero English players. He was already picking on a narrow scope. No one was claiming players got left behind who needed to go.

I mean, I said earlier... the 2010 debate was whether Carlton Cole or Bobby Zamora go. Two pretty rubbish players. I say that as a Brighton Fan too, as Bobby is a little bit of a legend at Brighton back in the early 2000s. But England? Nah.

Carlton Cole was playing in Indonesia's Premier League 5 years later. Well I say playing, he got 4 games and then got flogged off. Not even good enough to play in a league ranked about 7 places away from the worst in the world. Literally pub football.

That was the lost player of 2010

[sussexpob]

I'm big on team spirit. No evidence that it wins anything but imo it does help. The England team with the golden generation often get criticised for not bonding, whereas our current crop supposedly get on well. On the other side, Holland used to have problems in the camps, certainly in the mid 90's and despite having some fine/great players, struggled at times. Euro 96 coming to mind.

People seem to equate team spirit to getting on or liking each other though, but is it that? I think being dedicated to win is more, with everyone working to be better, fitter and more skillful. And when someone isnt, they get hit hard. You listen to Roy Keane (and Gary Neville) talk about their United days, you get the impression it was like that. They all wanted to win and be better, not be pals. And thats what made it work.

Its only when thing go wrong that people then post-fact add things like "oh, they argued" or what not. The fact is there are examples of this all over, and nothing is really provable. Great teams have hated each other. Great teams have retired best mates. Bad teams can get on... and so on. People just add what they want to failure or success. So many of Capello's former players say that about him. He wanted to win, I wanted to win..... he was an ar*ehole, but he made me better. And when I wasnt making myself better, he damn well made sure I knew it. So many successful teams are based on this. I am more inclined to believe success is having that element of work ethic and focus than any friendly comfortable environment.

Just as one example - Spain are the most successful team in recent times (3 major tournaments in a row).

See how many times those Barcelona players brawled in El Clasico with their Madrid counterparts? They hated each other. You had Catalan Independence supporters (Xavi, Pique and Iniesta all played ceremonial games for Catalans unofficial team in support) who didnt even consider themselves Spanish, Castellans, Basques who also hate being called Spanish.

How did they stay together? Isnt it as simple as they were all brilliant professionals, brilliantly skilled, and wanted to win at all costs?

[Durhamfootman]

Sven made a left field selection in 2006, and got absolutely annihilated for it (Theo Walcott who was 17). I heard him on a podcast a couple of weeks ago in prep for this tournament getting grilled for it even now. It was part of the reason why his position became untenable. He took him, then couldnt risk bringing him on. The press claimed Darren Bent, who had one year of top flight football should have gone. Bent had one year he did well after, got a huge transfer and subsequently turned rubbish. By about 30 he was trawling the lower leagues.

This is the kind of thing that gets my goat. There has always been too much pressure put on England managers to pick certain players, to the point where selecting the actual players a manager wants can become a career ending decision. When Shearer was England's talisman number 9 he was undroppable. He was a great striker, one of the best strikers around anywhere, why would anyone want to drop him? But the point is, if anyone dropped him, started him on the bench, left him at home for a tournament because he wasn't fully fit........ he'd be out of a job very soon. I'm trying to remember how long it took Gullit to lose his job as Newcastle manager after putting Shearer on the bench for a game.... I think it was hours rather than days

Too many managers have had their best players effectively picked for them by the chattering classes.... and are expected to play them. If 3 of the star players in the side all play pretty much the same roles for their respective clubs it seems foolish to then play all of them in the same starting XI, with all of them trying to fit in around each other.... yet that's what always seems to happen. Pick the best XI players and then try and find this illusionary system that will accommodate all of them and bring out the best in each...... bonkers! Yet if they are the 3 best players and the manager doesn't pick all of them..... and then loses...... it's Gullit time.

I have no doubt that if Sir Alf had lost one of those knockout matches in '66 having selected Hurst ahead of Greaves, then he'd have pilloried and probably sacked for having not selected Greaves.... even though he was unfit and slightly injured at the time.

It's okay to lose a tournament... plucky England, but lose a tournament after not selecting everyone's favourite players.... terminal!

[Arthur Crabtree]

Very true. It's a perfect fan/press position because as soon as anything goes wrong, there's your reason.

Don't know if 606 is still on! Hard to listen to, but there's the static that every manager has to contend with. And the press who are in the business of amplifying the static.

[sussexpob]

Sven laughed the criticism of by trying to say that the 23rd man is basically the guy who only plays when half the team die in a bus crash or something, so it really didnt matter. He preferred to have a bit of a maverick option in a youngster who had pace to burn and might bring something of an x-factor than a player who would be just 5th choice for a position and who he didnt rate enough to play. The press took that as him insulting Darren Bent, who for some reason was being compared to Maradona at the time, so he may have well have sharped the guillotine for later use.

The irony was, the press poleaxed him for taking the kid, then after tournament demanded to know why Sven hadn't brought him on when England needed a goal v Portugal. Poor Sven was left having to explain that maybe at 0-0 and down to ten men vs a team with Ronaldo in it wasnt exactly the time to bring on flair options and go all out attack, especially turning to a 17 year old kid. I guess poor Sven couldnt help Wayne Rooney being an idiot.

I didnt mind Sven. Seemed a stand up guy. Did a good job too.... we had zero chance of beating that Brazil team in 2002, but did well enough. We had a chance of beating Portugal in 2006, but Rooney buggered it up.

[Gingerfinch]

Rooney was injured as well going into the tournament.

Sven was fine but our Football in 2006 was pretty dire. 2004 was our time but Rooney got injured against Portugal. Without that who knows?

[sussexpob]

Rooney was injured as well going into the tournament

Was the standard wasnt it. And it ties in with what DFM was saying. How many times did Rooney or Beckham get injured before a tournament, only to turn up first game barely fit and looking rubbish? Beckham wasnt fit in 2002, Rooney wasnt fit in 2010 with the same mystical broken foot.... but you couldnt drop them.

In fact, in 2010 Beckham wasnt fit was he. The most laughable thing is, even when he was injured and 36, the press couldnt handle him not being there. He ended up being smartly dressed on the bench for all the games as the 24th man. I cant remember what the official reason was, but it was something to do with him being there in a capacity of inspiration.

And then when Capello finally ended his career after the tournament and said it was time to move on, my god people didnt like that. He had to promise to give Beckham a last friendly appearance to say goodbye, while Beckham refused the send off by saying he wasnt retiring, so sod off.

Left his finger nails in the doorframe being dragged away, Becks.

[Durhamfootman]

There was a time when metatarsal was the buzz word. Every tournament we selected a player with a busted one

We take Maguire... unfit
We took Rooney... unfit
Was there ever the remotest possible chance, that if Bechkam, Gerrard or Lampard were pre-tournament injury doubts that they wouldn't have made the squad?

who was it we took 3 years ago to the WC in the hope they'd be fit by the knockouts? or was that 2016? TBH it could have been any tournament in the last 20 years

[sussexpob]

who was it we took 3 years ago to the WC in the hope they'd be fit by the knockouts? or was that 2016? TBH it could have been any tournament in the last 20 years

Was in both tournaments.

The most famous being Jack Wilshere being picked by Roy Hodgson in 2016. I cant remember exactly the figure, but he had played something ridiculous like 60 minutes of football in a whole calendar year, and wasnt even fit enough to train when the squad was announced.

Southgate also picked Danny Rose in 2018, despite the fact he was strangely absent from the Spurs team at the time. If memory serves, the press were a bit miffed he was selected but had missed loads of Spurs games, and when pressed he subsequently explained he was having a recurring problem with injury, and the injury had given him mental health issues with depression he was struggling to cope with. Didnt seem wise to put the player in that situation, but I guess he could have said no.

[Durhamfootman]

Even Bobby Robson got caught up in this with Capt Marvel. He went to the '86 WC protecting a dodgy shoulder, only to aggravate it in the first match and take no further part. At least 4 years later he made it to the second group game. On both occasions England played better without him in the side... without having to protect him in the side...... and Robson was a terrific player, but only when injury free.

I suppose Robson, Shearer, Beckham, Rooney each became a talisman for their managers. Perhaps they become like a comfort blanket

[Durhamfootman]

and we are probably not alone in that. I think managers of other nations probably do the same thing. Someone they feel they can trust on the field

[Durhamfootman]

And it all works the other way too, I suppose. Who on earth had heard of Toto Schillaci before Italia '90?

If I understand it correctly, before the tournament began even Italians weren't sure whether he was the dog from the wizard of oz or the dog from tintin.

If he hadn't gone on a goal scoring spree and ended up with the golden boot and the golden ball, the manager would have had to endure pelters afterwards. He'd played for Italy once before that WC, I think.

If he'd been English and came on as a sub at England '90, he'd probably have been booed when he came on because he was replacing Lineker

[Durhamfootman]

In fairness to all England managers though, if they did something the press didn't like, they would have had their heads superimposed on a turnip

and I don't imagine that anybody would run that risk

[Durhamfootman]

so... what's the cunning plan tonight?

go for the win and get knocked out at the first opportunity by one of France, Germany or Portugal, or go for the draw hoping to get Slovakia, but after a late twist in group E ending up being knocked out by Spain or Sweden?

[Durhamfootman]

I see that the unfit Maguire and the barely fit Henderson will feature tonight

I'm thinking 3 centre backs, to protect Maguire, and 2 defensive mids, with Phillips being told to drop back to protect Henderson

Then Grealish can get his chance to shine with 8 men back, 2 men up and only him in the middle to stop England getting over-run in midfield

Henderson and Rice will have been told that their match bonus depends on their only ever passing the ball backwards in little triangles in their own half

Lets hope England grab a goal before they come on, then we can have fun watching them doing nothing but defend for the rest of the game