4th Test England v Pakistan, The Oval, Aug 11-15

[Dr Cricket]

do love hildreth batting.

[KipperJohn]

I thought this was a match thread - not pick a squad for the winter.

Yet again Pakistan let England back into the game - still not disciplined enough in the field. England should have been about 120-7. It rather puts a gloss on England's performance and as well as Bairstow, Ali and Woakes batted thereafter, other opponents might not be so generous.

[Dr Cricket]

unlike edgebaston reckon england could get 100 so + lead here, the pitch got pace for the edges to carry and the pitch got some movement for the bowlers to exploit.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Nice to see Mo and Woakes have made some runs. Presume batting got easier later in the day. Not a bad first innings score in the end, given England bowl last.

[Dr Cricket]

TBH the batting didn't really get easy just that pakistan couldn't catch/wahab no ball.

pakistan would do well to score 250.

[Making_Splinters]

TBH england not being decisive is probably a factor as well, wrote another forum since it suited there the most where literally a few poster every game say same team every game and if anyone questions hales/vince/ballance they get shot down for having a valid concern.
anyway picking the same team doing harm as well since the batsman are being worked over but they kept on playing so can not fix it or address it properly and if anything confidence goes and batting techniques goes slightly out of shape and is curtain for the batsman and it probably makes the batsman look worse than they actually are.

Not sure why vince, Ballance or any batsman for the matter can't miss games if they been worked over mid series playing another batsman might work out just like Sami Aslam, root or cook for the matter all scored unexpected runs.
Root himself got dropped and was better for it.
at the moment not sure why england gives too many chances and their going too the opposite extreme of the 90s.

At the moment most of the batsman get a summer or winter and when an bowler finds them out in an longer series they gone after mostly failing for the 4 or 5 test series and really before they would been some changes to the team that would have speared the batsman from having a proper horrid series.

not sure why Compton got all 3 test against Sri lanka or why Vince is still playing this test, Vince might be a future prospect but the guy not scoring runs if he worrying for his space plus some bowler got his marker.
sometimes the batsman needs to be spared the humiliation and have the time to work on their batting.

Think the last time England made a drastic change in the batting during the english summer was when Trott scored an ashes winning test century when Bopara got dropped.
not sure why england don't do it often since most of the time the opposition bowlers don't know the new batsman and so might not be able to trouble the new batsman like they would with the old batsman.

all fine give the new players a long rope but sometime it is kind to take them out of the firing line especially in a long series.

It depends on the player, Vince for example hasn't looked completely out of his depth at any stage during his brief career, he's been giving his wicket away with poor shots instead of being worked out by opposition bowlers. Very different for example compared to the late Phil Hughes when Harrison showed that he was weak against a well directed bouncer and England exploited that mercilessly.

[Dr Cricket]

good point making splinters.

[yuppie]

Maybe Vince just does not have the temperament for international cricket?


Hughes struggled against the short ball. We never got the chance to see if he could over come it, but at the age of 25 he had 3 test match 100's, 2 one day hundreds and was just about to make his way back into the test team.

Vince at the age of 25 has shown that he has a lot of work at international level to prove that he belongs. After 6 test matches on home turf on some pretty flat pitches against not the strongest attacks in the world, he has come up short so far. The 2 all rounders and keeper have scored more runs than him, as well as every other batsman. And he is the only batsman in the English team in the top 8 not to score a 50. Perhaps no weakness has been found in his technique due to him not staying in long enough for a weakness to be found?


Vince has had a chance, and needs to go back to county cricket to prove he belongs at test level. Something Hughes was doing and now that's something Vince needs to do.

[Dr Cricket]

TBH vince does last long enough got loads of pretty 30 or 40, like I said in the other thread he reminds me of Rohit Sharma.
someone that makes batting look easy but does have a small technical fault that causes him to be out and people just can't believe he been out because he makes batting look easy.

[budgetmeansbudget]

Hope they don't mess around with Ali's position, now that he's made a few decent scores.

Stokes back in at the expense of Ballance or Vince, neither have got enough technique/temperament for Test cricket.

Vince will go back to County cricket, but I'm not expecting him to go past 40 too often at that level either. He'll get there a lot quicker, but he'll still eventually nick off to slip.

[hopeforthebest]

Looking forward to today's cricket, I think it could tell us the destination of this test. I don't see Pakistan winning after missing their chance to bowl England out cheaply and going one down yesterday evening but the do have a chance to prevent England winning if they bat well today.

[Dr Cricket]

Hope the game not going to be a draw, it will either be an england win or pakistan win,
if pakistan bat well they are winning the game, not drawing it.

although can't see them getting 400+
they will do well to get 200.

[sussexpob]

It depends on the player, Vince for example hasn't looked completely out of his depth at any stage during his brief career, he's been giving his wicket away with poor shots instead of being worked out by opposition bowlers. Very different for example compared to the late Phil Hughes when Harrison showed that he was weak against a well directed bouncer and England exploited that mercilessly.

Not sure its good form to talk about Hughes and bouncers MS, but maybe I am being overtly sensitive.....

In a way both men you compare are totally polar opposites, but in others they are similar. Both have very acutely identifiable problems that has the danger of turning all their assets into wortheless window dressing. I dont think I would be putting on thick to suggest that Hughes was one of the best players of slightly loose balls outside his offstump I have seen, he latched onto anything fractionally full, wide or short outside his offstump. Bowl badly to him, and you are going down and quick.....but bowl well to him, it didnt matter. You might be able to consistently hit back foot drives through the covers that arent even that short or wide at fun, but if a terrible ball on the pads is more likely to get you out lbw then tucked to the boundary with ease, you arent going to get opportunity to drive much.

I think more I look at it, the more I think Vince's problems are more terminal. Doesnt matter if you cover drive like a legend, if your best asset is attacking strokes and thats your out to prove your quality, then is he going to be the type of player that is able to resist the carrot dangled? You see it in football a lot with players. They join a new club, dont start well, and then they revert to trying to score 40 yard screamers or dribble like Maradona.

[sussexpob]

Probably another topic, but Id rather a batsman with an inhert technical issue than an inherent character issue holding them back.

The interesting thing is, Vince is a "Flowerite". He was supposed to have come through this system that sorts out the merely skillful from the mentally tough, mentally focused superbeing that Flower seems to tout he demands. He was supposed to have graduated "Flower school" with top honours and recommendations. It seems at the moment like Flower only seen a highlight reel of Vince's best innings and made a judgement he wont change of that, not that Vince has proved he has passed these supposed tests and shown the mental apitutude and grit to succeed.

Vince is the type of player Fletcher would have turned into a long term test player. Im not sure Vince seems to me the type of player that thrived under Flower. He hated the maverick or player with attacking intent.

[backfootpunch]

Looks like a batting day today