CC discussion thread 2014

[D/L]

You not liking his action and it being illegal are different.

Not banned=legal.

According to the laws of the game, the action should not be permitted. It being "legal" because a bunch of time servers at the ICC say it is, doesn't really cut it for me.

[D/L]

If the ICC don't have an issue with it and no players, counties and boards have an issue, then nor should we, its pedantic.

No, it's not. It's just pointing out how the action contravenes the laws and the likely reasons that the ICC allow it to do so.

I'd be very surprised if the players and the counties didn't have an issue. Having the bravery to raise it is another matter.

[D/L]

The picture was clearly taken after the arm had reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing and was quite clearly bent. For the delivery to have been legal, the angle at the elbow would have had to have stayed the same or not increased until the point of delivery, which would not be possible.

A still photograph can be a very valid means of assessing the legality of a delivery.

As long as his arm was bent within 15 degrees of the angle it currently is in the picture (which is more or less the point of release) when the arm was at shoulder level then it's legal. There's no way you can tell this from a single picture.

"Legal" by the ICC "fudge" following the Muralitharan fiasco, perhaps, but not according to the laws of the game.

I'd say that this single picture suggests that you can tell.

[D/L]

As youve said, footage from the side shows a completely different angle. There was a brilliant video with Murali a while back showi.g how camera angles can be deceptive to his action.

I remember that. Some people believed it too.

[D/L]

Except I'm reffering to the real angles and not what you think it looks like .

"Real" angles?

[Hampshire]

The angle you'll view from a tv camera will rarely be a perpendicular view to the actual angle in the elbow causing it to look different to what it actually is.

[D/L]

"Perpendicular view to the actual angle in the elbow"?

[sussexpob]

As youve said, footage from the side shows a completely different angle. There was a brilliant video with Murali a while back showi.g how camera angles can be deceptive to his action.

I remember that. Some people believed it too.

The Mark Nicholas video, which was shown at the start of play in a test match as an extra feature, is often misquoted. If you had watched the whole of that days play, you would notice that at lunch they cut to Simon Hughes who analysed the video, and concludes that even with the brace Murali flexed, in the opinion of Hughes, over the current legal limit(which, I think, had just changed to the new laws, or was about to - they were quoting the old 5 degree flex). The brace didnt seem to prevent him from bending his arm, which made it a pointless test, and even then, it seemed to disprove what Channel 4 were aiming to do.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Except I'm reffering to the real angles and not what you think it looks like ;).

Hmm. That's just propaganda.

[Hampshire]

Except I'm reffering to the real angles and not what you think it looks like .

Hmm. That's just propaganda.

Wait what..?

Bend your arm slightly whilst holding it out infront of you. Now take a picture from a variety of positions. Measure the angles in each of these pictures and the only accurate one will be from 90 degrees to the side. Propaganda? No, truth....

[sussexpob]

Anyone ever tried bowling it? As an ex-club offspinner, I have tried, I couldnt do it without throwing, and I really tried to work a way to do it.

Murali once said that the difference between the doosra and the spinner is the shoulder rotation, and essentially its that creating an illusion of difference that catches people out. I once put this to the test, tried to understand the muscles involved, look into the tension and where you are feeling it..... I still believe its impossible.

I challenge anyone to pick up a cricket ball, a golf ball, anything round. When you bowl with a straight arm, even slowly, you find that the tension comes from the muscles in the upper part of your arm and shoulder. Its a bearable tension. Try putting a bend in the arm and doing it again. You will find instantly that the tension is now in the elbow, and as your arm rises it concentrates in the shoulder and the side.

Essentially, when you then try to put a bend in the arm and end in a position where you rotate the shoulder to end with the palm of the hand facing backwards towards your body, there is no tension in the lower arm or wrist. If you were to release the ball at this point, or try to roll the fingers or wrist, you would find the ball would drop out the hand with no pace or direction. Your body has wound up lots of stored energy in the upper body, upper arm, but you have transferred any of it to the muscle groups that matter.

The only way that you can do that is, when the tension builds as the arm rises, you transfer that energy by moving the lower arm away from the body, or flexing it. To release the ball and spin it, you also have to open the wrist and move it forward. Try doing it, and even with a still, no bowling arm, you find the lower arm moving with you to narrow the angle at the elbow and straighten the arm. Try doing it full pace, and the arm straightens a lot.

Now obviously in order to position the arm to bowl with the hand in the position of a doosra, you have to bend the arm while it goes back, otherwise you cant rotate the shoulder round to position the arm correctly when coming to bring the arm over the shoulder. The more bend, the less tension you are losing in other muscles that you have to compensate for when you release it. But then, the greater the bend, the more you have to straighten to impart anything on the ball when you release.

Put simply, I think its impossible to do without a huge amount of flex

[D/L]

Except I'm reffering to the real angles and not what you think it looks like .

Hmm. That's just propaganda.

Wait what..?

Bend your arm slightly whilst holding it out infront of you. Now take a picture from a variety of positions. Measure the angles in each of these pictures and the only accurate one will be from 90 degrees to the side. Propaganda? No, truth....

That seems a bit of a "red herring". I'll simply put my trust in what I see (from a variety of angles) and not just in stills pictures.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Except I'm reffering to the real angles and not what you think it looks like ;).

Hmm. That's just propaganda.

Wait what..?

Bend your arm slightly whilst holding it out infront of you. Now take a picture from a variety of positions. Measure the angles in each of these pictures and the only accurate one will be from 90 degrees to the side. Propaganda? No, truth....

A bent arm can be made to look more straight. But a straight arm can't be made to look more bent. And Ajmal's arm bends hugely however bent it remains when he lets go. The arm will only appear straighter if it flexes towards the viewer, but that's not what happens when you view footage from the side, the straightening of the arm happens at 90 degrees to your line of vision. There is no optical illusion there.

[Hampshire]

Think we should end there as it's obvious we've all got our own separate views. Although not related to the thread, it's something I've seen on youtube in slow motion for the first time, how the hell does Narine get his 'Knuckle-ball' doosra to spin the other way! Take a look at 0:20 in the following video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IKWk76Anjk. The turn is just mental and I can't work out where the logic is behind it!

[Arthur Crabtree]

Anyone ever tried bowling it?

Well, the amazing thing is that they throw so little in bowling it. I don't think you can argue it's not a great athletic achievement.