India the Test Future?

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Re: India the Future?

Postby HarryPotter » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:11 pm

ddb wrote:
HarryPotter wrote:Pick the team then the captain from it. The Aussies always had that right.

Right now anyone would be better than Dhoni, on many levels. But on captaincy why would anyone else be a worse captain?

Lol. I've criticised Dhoni but one hand people are calling for seniors to go and then saying Dhoni too. You make Rohit captain lol? Dhoni's the best option, backing him to get it right is the best decision. Saying anyone would be better is silly.


I am not saying he goes. Just saying its impossible to expect him to captain, keep wicket and bat to a high standard.

Fine if he is the best option but dont expect him to excel in all three areas. If you are willing to sacrifice his keeping or batting (maybe both) for him to captain well then no problem.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby ddb » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:21 pm

HarryPotter wrote:
ddb wrote:
HarryPotter wrote:Pick the team then the captain from it. The Aussies always had that right.

Right now anyone would be better than Dhoni, on many levels. But on captaincy why would anyone else be a worse captain?

Lol. I've criticised Dhoni but one hand people are calling for seniors to go and then saying Dhoni too. You make Rohit captain lol? Dhoni's the best option, backing him to get it right is the best decision. Saying anyone would be better is silly.


I am not saying he goes. Just saying its impossible to expect him to captain, keep wicket and bat to a high standard.

Fine if he is the best option but dont expect him to excel in all three areas. If you are willing to sacrifice his keeping or batting (maybe both) for him to captain well then no problem.

His batting improved with captaincy and regressed when he went away from home, he's never going to score big away. His keeping has been fine bar England/WI, that was a fitness issue mainly.

Sacking Dhoni creates problems than it solves, end of.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby HarryPotter » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:27 pm

Fair enough, as I say if you are willing to have 1 or more facit of his game poor at any one time then keep him. However you will never be a consistent force in Test cricket because of this.

In Aus his captaincy has being poor now that his keeping is OK. So again he cant do it all.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby ddb » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:38 pm

HarryPotter wrote:In Aus his captaincy has being poor now that his keeping is OK. So again he cant do it all.


They're not mutually exclusive though. Against Eng, his batting, keeping and captaincy was crap. ;)

He most likely wouldn't become a good captain away if he didn't have the gloves. He wouldn't be a better batsmen without captaincy(stats say much worse) He captains much better in India, maybe it's conditions, bowlers bowl better etc, coach should be helping but he's not.

His captaincy away has been average for a while. You have no alternative though at the moment, I don't see why people don't get that. It's not accepting that he will fail in one aspect because he would probably do that without the captaincy anyway. He fails in certain aspects occasionally due to a heavy workload in other forms, he had barely any days off last year, SA tour, WC, IPL, WI tour, Eng tour, Eng, WI, Aus tour. His max break in the year was 2-3 weeks. It's about accepting that this man has done many things and still is the best option to lead India till the end of 2013 at least when we don't leave India.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby braveneutral » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:00 am

There is none. Not unless they change all of the pitches at home to reduce the effectiveness of their batsmen and spinners.
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I suppose.

At times.

Re: India the Future?

Postby rich1uk » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:07 am

i really dont see the point of saying they should stick with laxman and hope he regains form

gotta be realistic here, the guy will turn 38 this year. saying that they should give him a chance just because they stuck with dravid through a bad patch and he came good is flawed logic. its been obvious for a while now that india need to try and stagger the process of replacing the big three and the longer they wait to start that process the more likely its going to be that all three will need replaced within a short space of time and you lose any chance of managing the transition.

it will be far easier to bring in someone now when they still have dravid and tendulkar around than maybe have to replace all three and have a top 6 with 3 or 4 rookies.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby OffStumpYorker » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:32 am

Cynomis wrote:India's dramatic fall has coincided with the introduction of a certain wise man who is paid to help them perform better.


Not sure this is a fair comment, we all know that being the Indian coach is a poisoned chalice, when you're winning you're the best thing since sliced bread, when you're losing the knifes are out because of the politics.

Fletcher is similar to Chappel in that hes a hard man and likes to be in charge with India he'll never be in charge. If you think back to the 1999 when Fletch was introduced to England he had to crack a few heads together and it took him 3-5 series to start getting things right, and changing attitudes in the both the england camp and ECB (central Contracts etc).

The most important thing is to have the captain on side with the same vision and this may be the problem, I dont think Dhoni has bought into the Fletcher vision, just as Ganguly didnt buy into the Chappell vision.

You also have a board of Selectors that are blaming every department, in England they blamed the conditions and injuries, in Australia they are blaming the batting, what they dont realise is that the problem is fielding and bowling, In england (with a few exceptions) the fielders wouldnt chase down a ball or stop halfway to the boundry, the slips are two deep and close together, you have 3 slips where most other teams would have 2, and they could have done with being a yard or two closer.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby meninblue » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:29 am

IMO Aussies management / think tank have studied the Indians on Indian tour of England excellently. If you carefully analyze the wickets they have prepared, it suits Aussie pacers the way they can exploit the Indian batsmen weaknesses and negating the strength of Indian bowlers. It seems to me that the four bowler attack of Aussies has played a huge role in such a preparation. Although Siddle has been very successful in this series, IMO our batsmen have failed to exploit his weakness, which could have exposed their 4 bowlers attack. Until Dravid does not ticks, i am very skeptical about winning a test on this tour.

Ishant IMO should not have been carried. Irfan is the one whom i would have liked to see in absence of Praveen. If something is wrong between Irfan and someone else, they should have carried Balaji. Praveen's injury was a huge blow. Ishant needs to deliver a five fer. Umesh seems to be a wicket taker so i don't mind him seeing going for a few runs. It's very difficult to get an Indian pacer who can take wickets, bowl long spells without injury and choke runs at the same time. Zak is a well know story as far his injuries, abilities, performance is concerned.

Sachin's retirement is a topic of discussion. Sachin stays in Bandra, Mumbai. I would like to share that every day after series, over there he pays some money out of his pocket to the groundsman so that he can get the wicket ready for him the way he wants and maintained well. He has a knock daily for an hour at least. Yuvi and Rohit Sharma stay in Bandra as well and they both have house one above the other in same building. Rohit and Yuvi had put on weight at same poitn of time in their career. I have been made aware of some of their lifestyle when they are together. Also their work ethics are very different to Sachin's and i would not like to post much about this on a forum atleast. When fitness is a key you have to control booze. When a assistant coach to Lalchand Rajput finds players together with bottles of liqour and cigarette packets lying in their rooms, it's not a nice sight. Without a fit body things will just become difficult for someone still not able to get settled in test squad. But in a nutshell they do not devote time to cricket and don't work hard as much as Sachin does. Sachin has a balanced lifestyle, some other cricketers do not balance it well. That was a problem with Vinod Kambli too. Bapu Nadkarni who has seen Sachin and kambli play many long innings in early part of their domestic career, had at that point of time, acknowledged that Kambli was better than Sachin . Sandeep Patil was of the same view as well. Kambli had to marry Noela David, a receptionist after having an affair with her. Divorce followed. Kambli came from a very poor family. Behavior was a huge problem with him. Even kambli did not look after his dad and moved to a flashy house and lifestyle but did not show much intent and care for his dad. When Ajit Wadkear was the team manager Kambli was at his prime. Wadekar used to tolerate all the bad habits of Kambli. Sandeep Patil later became the team manager. He was a strict disciplinarian and Kambli found it tough with his habits and his behavior was no longer taken leniently. Kambli's form dripped, his team mates too didn't like kambli because of his behavior. Azhar had received many complaints about that too. Kambli was dropped considering all the factors. When poor kambli became rich so as to afford luxuries of the world, he ditched his dad too. In an interview last year kambli comes and speaks Sachin could have supported him more. Total rubbish. Manjrekar and Kambli, Sachins two best mates have digged rubbish comment about Sachin. Both change their opinions as quickly as Ian Chappell does. Insiders who have been part of Mumbai's cricketing system know the truth. Sachin is thus hold in high esteem amongst the knowledgeable fans who are aware of Sachins work ethics, lifestyle, behavior etc. There are stories which are never printed in media. Hidden truth and outspoken cricketers cause more trouble to cricketers like Sachin. The normal cricket fans reads and passes on information what one reads in media, sadly most of the comments come from people who could not mange themselves or people who change their views as wind blows across Arabian sea.


In the context of work ethics, no Indian player, especially the new comers can be compared with Sachins work ethics, lest be abilities, skills, talent, fitness craze etc.

Yuvi, Raina and Rohit do not look as the solutions to for near future in test team. Rohit is better than both of them IMO. Having said that Rohit like Dravid has a tendency to go across early, making him LBW candidate more often. Rohit gets confident as soon as he strikes few balls in middle and that is what his downfall is. I remember one Ranji knock wherein Rohit played a stupendous knock only to throw his wicket away. He needs to wait and show more patience. Patience is the only key to convert decent starts to a 50+ a 100+ or a double in longer format. The general observation is that the players faults can be rectified only until age of 14, otherwise it becomes very difficult. Put it into perspective the age sachin started going to schools of cricket (clubs/nets). Acharekar perhaps had a lot of impact on him due to this factor. Offcourse Sachin being Sachin was willing to learn right things and more keen to learn and improve even before he was ten. Yuvi, Rohit and Raina are ahead of the time wherein they can change major flaws. That is likely to be reflected in their overall averages throughout the career even on batsmen friendly test match wickets and deteriorating quality of pace and spin bowlers in a reduced 4 bowlers attack. Yuvi and Raina are natural stroke makers like Rohit. I doubt they have time to change the game a bit to suit and adapt to test cricket even during these easy days for the batsmen.


As far as batsmen are concerned, we need to give Pujara and i agree with Dilbert and Red about it. Athough Pujara has a couple of technical flaws he must be preferred over Yuvi, Rohit and Raina. Even Abhinav Mukund and Wasim Jaffer. Anyone who says Jaffer is done and dusted for age or whatever must avoid saying that to Saurav Ganguly. I am a fan of Wasim as well, not because the other options are are Yuvi, Rohit and Raina, but for the fact that he is one of the most successful Ranji cricketer and a huge scorer. Offcourse Wasim has gone on air that he would like to bat in middle order. When he previously entered the squad the middle order was not vacant with Ganguly being a successful middle order test player. Wasim opened the innings. Now we have a number 6 to be grabbed, having tried Yuvi, Raina and Kohli. Hope some sense wil prevail. Norrth zone is the zone to play for and favored now. Sadly Wasim is from West Zone. Ajinkya Rahane is a good player as well and played nice knocks in England V/s Lions and in ODI. Perhaps the kanga League experience, playing during monsoon and on lush green wickets has helped him to adjust better than any other eqaully fresh Indian opener on his first tour against England in England.

I would say Pujara, Wasim, Ajinkya are the candidates. Abhinav too deserves a chance but he will perhaps have to wait longer.

As far as captaincy is concerned i believe a captains performance depends a lot on the resources in hand. The captaincy options available to India are good and they have played enough of grass root cricket, domestic cricket and international cricket that there is not much difference in captaincy. Someone or other will be better than other but there will not be a huge gap atleast between these guys. So, go with Dhoni. He is a senior. Sehwag and Gambhir are likely to give major losses to their insurance companies. :laugh Rahul, Sachin and VVS are no more the options. You need to keep guys like Yuvi, Raina, Rohit in check as a captain if they make a mark into it. A junior will find it much difficult to control them and more so if you add Virat to it. The wicketkeeping difference is not much between Dhoni and other available. A rest from few games in T20, IPL and some ODI series might help him work on his test batting and contribute better than in recent times. It is better to consider a long term plan and persist with Dhoni, irrespective of the fact we lost 4-0 in England and we are likely to lose this series as well. I will persist with Dhoni and like to see him being rotated for rest in certain formats and in certain tournaments.

As far as the coach is concerned Duncan is fairly good at it. The only thing i wonder is that whether it was right off him to say that Indian players are proven world class ones and rather than they learning from me, i can learn something form them. A statement on that line from the coach, will not be a professional one and can bring complacency. Gary Kirsten, when he joined was down to earth acknowledging the Indian superstars but put hsi words very well. Again as i believe a cricketers skills can be molded easily upto the age of 14 and then it becomes very difficult. So the coach is more about getting the team to be cohesive, man manager and strategy builder along with captain and management or think tank. These guys must convey the plans along with drills to the captain and the players performance by means of execution will determine the success of coach or the team in the test format. The away record is not impressive as we struggle a lot in some conditions, even against teams with inexperienced bowling attacks. That surely needs to be taken care of. As pointed above the youngsters need to get complacency out of their head, practice harder and only then success will follow them in test cricket.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby OffStumpYorker » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:00 am

Happy new Year Adi, I hope all is well with you.

You last post was an very interesting and thought provoking read, especially with the 'inside' info on some of the up and coming players.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to the complacency issue, I saw this in England before each days play at the oval. You had 2 contrasting teams, England out early doing thier nets and drills, from about 10:00-10:15, laughing and chatting, then you had India, with the 'old men' (SRT, Dravid, etc) doing net practice from about 10:15-10:30, the youngsters wandered onto the pitch about 10:30 did the bare minimum (if anything) and wandered back in.

I have a suspicion that DF is giving the Indian team enough rope to hang themselves, in order for him to start ringing the changes he thinks are necessary, however its a dangerous game hes playing if that is whats he is doing, I seem to remember him doing something similar when he took over England.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby meninblue » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:27 am

OSY, Thanks and Happy new year to you too as well as of good health.

Yes the inside information is what interests me too and we share it a lot between our clubmates. Although parties by cricketers can be refreshing and welcome breaks, doing it at cost of nets session and regularly is not the correct way. Duncan, it seems to me has a very tough task. I will be very keen to share some more information about him and cricketers as time passes in his current tenure with Indian cricketers.

Thanks for sharing something which is not printed yet authentic. Not bookish knowledge,but practical. I get a feeling that i am discussing with one of my clubmate. :thumb

Now that i have come to know about their work ethics on England tour as witnessed by you, i am afraid if this is going to be the regular approach over their career for future. Their is simply no substitute for hard work and practice.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby OffStumpYorker » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:59 am

I think its just about mindset, and that is what DF brought to england, there was a time in the late 90's where england had exactly the same attitude, but with DF and Nassar (hard working himself) at the helm they helped start the revival we are seeing today.

If anyone can bring about change in the Indian team its DF he just needs time and a captain that is on board. It will only take a couple of high profile droppings for a bad attitude to training and the other members of the team will get the message, again it worked in England, so should work elsewhere, especially a cricket mad country like India.

In regards to the prematch training I witnessed at the oval, it may have been different at the start of the tour and they just flagged towards the end. I always like to get the ground early (60-90 minutes before the start), so that I can find my seat, watch the pre-days training session and read the papers.

Id be interested to know if the same is happening in Aus or any of the other games last year.

I dont know Dhoni the person, but I get the impression he just goes with the flow, and doesnt seem overly critical of the team when they fail.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby meninblue » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:36 pm

I was really surprised when there was rift between Sachin and Greg. I doubt it was Sachin's work ethics. However, I do understand that he had fair point about Yuvi, Munaf and Zaheer not putting much effort in fitness or training. Duncan should have no problems dealing with balanced players such as Sachin and Rahul, who are essentially seld disciplined. It's the other guys who need to be watched and coached. That is his challenge. Dhoni is a key component for him as Dhoni is a good friend to these youngsters. So getting Dhoni into confidence will be of great help to Duncan. The fact that Dhoni is of more balanced mindset than other youngsters will help Duncan a bit.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby greyblazer » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:51 pm

Dhoni's captaincy works in India as India are so strong at home. Anyway best of luck to young quicks like Yadav and Sharma with Dhoni as the captain. The best example was asking Yadav to bowl one-day lines by attacking the stumps.Here was a bowler who in the first test had a clear plan in mind against Punter but in the second test was messed up by Dhoni. No wonder Yadav completely lost the plot. The best one was asking Ashwin to bowl middle and leg-stump line with a deep point in place :D
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Re: India the Future?

Postby Cynomis » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:15 pm

Fletch's 0-7 test record in Australia can't be just a quirky meaningless stat.
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Re: India the Future?

Postby greyblazer » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:18 pm

I got that slightly wrong in the live matches thread as his record is won 1 and lost 11. Thanks to OSY for pointing that out :D
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