English Cricket Thread

[alfie]

Kind of pointless fussing too much at present over who will be fit and available for the Ashes tour...many months away and a home summer to survive. But obviously a lot of the pace men have had significant injury issues so counting too much on any one or two is an exercise in hopeful optimism...

The good thing is that there does appear to be a fairly large group of bowlers who could be effective if called upon for the Aussie trip. I share SP's doubts about Wood and Archer , though I have a little more faith in the chances of the former being up for at least a couple of Tests provided he makes a full recovery from his current issues : at least he won't be running around risking another new injury in the immediate future !

Cook seems a reasonable call given his form though I guess we won't know until we see him against the Big Boys. Woakes ? Not a good overseas record. Could he yet be useful in the pink ball match though ? Potts might not have high pace but I wouldn't be afraid to use him in Australian conditions. So far he has been rather in and out of the side ; but while his results haven't been spectacular they aren't rubbish either : I think he has something.

The big disappointment of course is what happened to Robinson. Three years ago I thought he would be the successor to Anderson : but something went badly wrong between the last Ashes series and the India tour. Now apparently his fitness has fallen off a cliff and he is clearly on the outer with the England management. His recent figures in the CC are not very inspiring and although I haven't watched any of these games the reports I've read don't seem to suggest he's looking good for a swift comeback. If he is done at 31 it is a real pity.

Think they will need to be careful with Atkinson. Know when to rest him even if his form makes it hard to leave him out. On that point I hope they take a few "spares" to Australia to cover for the feared injury strikes...

[sussexpob]

The big disappointment of course is what happened to Robinson. Three years ago I thought he would be the successor to Anderson : but something went badly wrong between the last Ashes series and the India tour.

I lived through enough of Andy Flower at the ECB to smell a created narrative justifying a conclusion based on no actual methodology a mile off. Robinson got injured for Sussex in a match vs Glamorgan in 2023, was rushed back for the Ashes not 100%, as a result got injured again in the 3rd Ashes test. He then got picked to go to India, played one game on a pitch where England had Joe Root open the bowling (in fact, 3 of the 4 innings were opened by spin at both ends), and that was it - career has been stoned to death.

I guess we can take from this that Key values fitness - which is why in Robinson's absence, he picked a mid-20s pace bowler who in his own words nearly retired 12 months before because of consistent stress fractures. He then picked Woakes, who has missed about 150 tests since he debuted with injury. And then Mark Wood, who also has missed 100 plus tests injured and has never made it through a test series in his whole career. Ok, maybe it wasn't fitness. Maybe it was form he was looking for - which is why he picked someone with an atrocious ODI record and who averaged 100 a wicket in the CC that season? Worth noting Wood replacing Robinson had a worse season than Robinson has ever had in his career, and missed more matches injured.

There is no logic here.

Let's just sum up this "badly wrong" in the context of others in the team..... For all bowlers to play from start of 2023 to the India series in 2024, only Broad and Tongue have better averages than Robinson in that time period - both took 5-for nowt in the game against Ireland, and neither played in the hardest tour (India away) where everyone's average plummets. Once you remove the India game from Robbo, and Ireland from Broad and Tongue.... ah yes. Different story. Top performer our Robbo.

In the end, its hard to see where this terrible run of form comes in. He went to Pakistan and averaged 21, including two pitches which were ranked in top 10 all time flattest on record. He went away to the test champions and averaged 30 odd, and then came home and went sub 30 in the Ashes (28). None of these series are remotely "badly wrong". In fact, his MOTM bowling winning the game in Rawalpindi will go down as one of the modern great moments for English cricket, on a pitch that never should have produced a result, and was one of the flattest pitches ever measured.

You end up with a worrying conclusion - Robbo had one bad game in India on a pitch both sides hardly bowled any overs of pace on, and that was it. One bad test. Nothing before that is bad, not in the context of the game, not in the context of his contemporaries. There was no reason to single him out.

[sussexpob]

And I say that before we analyse Robinson's value or performance up to that point. He was ranked 4th best bowler in the world at the point he was dropped. His average is superb, and pretty much no one in decades in an England shirt has maintained such a low average for that many games into their career - Atkinson, who has played now half of Robinson's games, averages exactly the same and was just named Wisden Cricketer of the year. Could you imagine if Atkinson replicates the same figures for another 10 games, you would even imagine considering dropping him? Would be mad wouldn't it? Well, that's what England just did.

Players to take 50 wickets in England with the lowest averages (seamers only).

Sydney Barnes - Made the all time XI
Fred Trueman - Named in England's all time XI and was included in the first group to ever be enshrined in the hall of fame - an all time great
Ollie Robinson - a few decimals behind in 3rd place at 20 a piece

That is the level of performance we are talking about. We aren't talking about merely good, we are talking about almost unprecedented all-time great levels of performance over that many wickets taken.

And here's where it gets interesting. All but 5 games Robinson played are against teams that subsequently made the top 2 of the ICC Test Championship in the cycle of the game occurring. Pakistan away is the only one, and as already mentioned, he was stellar in that series. South Africa are probably the worst team he played at home, and England lost the game he didn't play by an innings, and won (with him MOTM) the other two by an innings.

Not only is his stats great, but he has done it against exclusively top ranked sides - no SL, BD or WI are padding these stats in comparison to others.

[sussexpob]

Now apparently his fitness has fallen off a cliff and he is clearly on the outer with the England management

You are aware that after the summer of 2021 where Robinson won the Wisden Cricketer of the year award for taking 30 odd wickets at a sub 20 average, Rob Key said on Sky that he'd drop Robinson for the Ashes series because he bowled to slow, and that he wasn't the type of bowler who'd do anything on OZ pitches. Robinson then went straight to 2nd on the list of English bowling averages in OZ in the last 30 years, and the Fat Controller was made to look as stupid.

Key literally wanted to drop Robinson at the height of his powers, with no questions of fitness, using the same reasoning as he gave in a long interview about 2 weeks after Robinson last played a test. No pace, I don't care what you do - its literally what he said about cricket in general AND Robinson very specifically.

Let's stop indulging in this character assassination of Robbo. Key doesn't want him because he doesn't fit with his warped agenda - it has nothing to do with his attitude, fitness or form at the time of him being dropped.

Key rather have played averaging 57 in FC cricket and cant get a game at Glamorgan in the test team bowling 88mph, than someone with a generational test average.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Just looked on Wiki to see if there are any theories. And the opening paragraph calls him right arm medium paced!

His demise hasn't brought about a KP type controversy though.

[sussexpob]

His demise hasn't brought about a KP type controversy though.

No, but it feels like treatment from that era. As I said before, while Flower was on his crusade to create brilliant cricketers from people he defined as great characters, anyone who did not fit inside that personality mould who he came under pressure to select, often got obliterated in public for dubious reasons.

Flower deciding James Kirtley was a chucker despite no one else ever even considering it. Deciding Jack Leach was some destructive, out of control crazy man hellbent on destroying dressing rooms. Dropping James Taylor and leaking it was because he had a bad attitude (and then the videos of the team making him dance like a circus monkey because he was small came out). The KP saga, Shehzad, Carberry.... endless lists of players Flower didn't want to pick, and went about it by creating false issues with them.

Flower even got Leach twice. He came into the team eventually, and rather than him being this difficult to handle crazy man who chainsmokes while fielding, and is often drinking whiskey out the bottle while his team bats, he turned out to be the most biege, timid, geeky people England have ever picked...... Within a few weeks, Flower once again noticed something no one else did.... he was a chucker.

I guess if he was a biometric expert and was able to call Flower's bluff, the next would have been a dossier of photos of Leach whistling at various places.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I'd probably buy your book on Andy Flower, if you wrote one!

[Durhamfootman]

and I know a good lawyer

[sussexpob]

I'd probably buy your book on Andy Flower, if you wrote one!

I plan Chapter 23 to be deep dive into the genius of Flower's ability to see what others never do, using the example of Jack Leach.

Going to start it with quotes from the BBC describing him as the most down to Earth cricketer they ever interviewed, add a bit from Cricinfo about him being seemingly a nice guy and popular in the dressing room.... then cut to the part Flower eviscerates his character, and makes out like he is some slacker bum who turns up to the ground late and half pissed/stoned.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Hopefully just one line devoted to Flower's career as a player. Second sentence, takes over as England coach.

[sussexpob]

Chapter 1 will serve as an introduction to when he takes over, and how he stole all of Andrew Strauss' personality in exchange for becoming England captain.

Chapter 11 will be a short essay on how dictatorships can only flourish if there is competency in leadership, using Donald Trump's first months of his second term as a basis for comparison.

Chapter 39 will be a whole chapter on Mung Bean Curry

Chapter 47 will be dedicated to discussions on whether Matt Prior is actually made of cheese, and if so, what type.

Chapter 66 will be "Bromance or Romance" - asking the question on whether Flower and Strauss' professional partnership was just plutonic, or did it get steamy.

Coming soon in 2026

[Arthur Crabtree]

With free callipers.

[sussexpob]

Talking of Flower, he has reunified with another one of my favourite English cricketing administrators, the Mo-Bat, at RCB now. They are busy making great decisions like releasing Siraj and keeping some medium pace trundler I have never heard of with an economy rate of nearly 10 a game, because apparently the guy with 200 international wickets didn't quite offer the same "skill set" as the other nobody ...... As you imagine, Siraj is now the joint 2nd top wicket taker in the tournament this year bowling , and the other guy has been dropped at RCB after 4 games.

This being Flower and the Mo-bat, I imagine that Siraj failed the yearly chemistry exam set for the team. Didn't know Bucky-balls and diamond were a different type of carbon - stupid git. Can't have guys like that in elite level sport. Not right for the aura, stupid people.

[sussexpob]

Now the Mo-bat has taken up a big profile role in India, he can no longer be the English cricketing Keyser Soze - he actually has to front up to the cameras now and then and talk. I actually watched the RCB podcast with him on for instance, a gripping 45 minute interview where the Mo-Bat set out his vision for cricket -and by gripping, I mean mostly listening to him churn out a load of boring, uninspiring management speak cliches that made me feel he was at an interview for a job he knew nothing about, and was just reduced to making up random answers in the hope he might blag it.

I guess in a way that is fascinating, because he basically explained what I already know - the big heads at the top decide what is best, and when it all goes wrong all you need to know is the plan is never wrong, its only the execution - and if you stick to the plan and what you are told, success will follow. Its almost like he explained why Zak Crawley is rubbish to a tee. Go out there, smash it - if you get out smashing it, then who cares, smashing it is the right thing to do. Even when your average plunges and you have the worst 3 match series an English opener ever had - smash it. Because doing the wrong thing over and over again is the right thing. Because the coach is right, and his idea is never wrong.

I joke, but isn't that just a terrible vision for sporting excellence? Shouldn't failure be about questioning the "process" not following it?? I mean, to use Zak again - rather than smash it, maybe learn how to stop playing balls on 4th stump lines, or learn to hit balls inswinging and full. If a golfer is shanking balls into the trees, are you telling him his swing is perfect and he just needs to trust it, or you taking him to the range and deep-diving on his mechanics? And we wonder why Mo-Bat became responsible for talent in 2012, and its pretty much that exact moment we stopped being the world's best and 7 years later had our worst 2 year period of test history for batting a generation later.

Still, I guess we should trust guys like the Fat Controller who loved Mo-bat. Can you get a more glowing reference than TFC basically saying "ah, Mo was great to work with. If it wasn't for him, I'd have actually had to get up and arrive at the office at 9am and do some work". I thought Key was going to cry saying it, thinking he might have to get up when its still dark in winter and go watch some tapes.

If any of you have grandchildren or children to look after, search the Mo-Bat's after dinner motivations speechs - out like a lightbulb.

[Slipstream]

To think Mo Bobat was once selecting England players but had no experience of playing but university educated. Now I see he is RCB's Director of Cricket.

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