English Cricket Thread

[Arthur Crabtree]

England (men) don't seem to have a single game in any format in August!

[Durhamfootman]

perhaps because the assorted Indian owners of the Silly counties won't allow it?

[Durhamfootman]

just wait until the ECB are instructed to schedule the ashes series between the end of the IPL and the start of the Nonsense

[Slipstream]

@willis_macp

Sam Cook to be rested from this week’s Championship round as his workload is managed in conjunction with England ahead of an increasingly likely Test call up for Zimbabwe. Reward for prolific county form, as Chris Woakes nurses an ankle injury

[sussexpob]

Picking Sam Cook is interesting if true, because its a total departure away from what Rob Key was talking about this time last year, and a departure away from picking people like Josh Hull/ Carse last year also. Its at this point I ask myself what Rob Key is trying to do, because I am not really sure he has a plan as such, or not one I can see a clear trend with. Part of Key so far has been Fletcher - Carse is a good example. Seeing something there past the stats and wanting to embrace it. But then there is Flower in Key too - picking people like Bethall or Hull because they are the right stuff on paper despite what they do on the field, or filling the Lions team with under 19 year old academy talents who don't play at their counties yet because the Flower pathway model has been retained.

Flower's model produced Joe Root, but really no one else. Flower had an absolutely lousy record of finding talent, and his team declined and then burned out as talent drained slowly out the team. Fletcher overtime lost that contact with County cricket that made him so good at seeing through players deficiencies, and he struggled to reinvent the team he created. In the middle, you had Moores. A lousy national team coach, but in the space of not very long what he did do was pick the team that Flower would take to greatness. And Moores was a county man, who picked the best county players performing at the moment. Interesting that the foundation of our two most successful sides post 1999 have been built on that fundamental platform.

But I get the feeling from what Key says, he despises county cricket. Has no faith in it.

[sussexpob]

I did listen to Key recently dissect England's CL performance, and found myself scratching my head at some of the nonsense he was talking. Apparently not having a left arm spinner is a major reason, and not being able to bat against left arm spin also.

Against Afghanistan, it was pace that killed us.
Against SA we were 100-6 when Maharaj got a bowl, losing wickets to Jansen and Mulder.

[andy]

Picking Sam Cook isn't moving away from the norm for key...he has been clear about having a varied attack there has always been room for a 80-83mph seamer in the attack but they made it clear there's only room for one ...Anderson moved on they went to woakes....if cook comes in it will be for woakes not to play alongside him

[sussexpob]

Picking Sam Cook isn't moving away from the norm for key...he has been clear about having a varied attack there has always been room for a 80-83mph seamer in the attack but they made it clear there's only room for one ...Anderson moved on they went to woakes....if cook comes in it will be for woakes not to play alongside him

Lol, even the fact Cook bowls in the lower 80s has changed - when Key didn't want to pick him last year, he said he was a county "70s" style trundler, albeit with skills. Now hes on the fringe of the team he's suddenly added 13 mph on. Let's remember that Key dropped England's best averaging bowler in 7 decades on the basis that "at the end of spells his pace drops to 78-79pmh". So what we are saying is generational talents can be discarded on the basis that their 6th and 7th overs drop 1mph under the required standard, and averaging 22 a wicket in international cricket is meaningless - even though no one in England has managed it since my father wasn't born.

Forgive me for not seeing the grand strategy. I guess Key, as he does, would argue that being accurate, tall, hitting the deck hard and making batsman play all the time doesn't transfer to the mystical pitches of Australia. You have to be a big, snorting mutant fast bowler to be good there, like ... Glenn McGrath, the well known extreme pace man who in no ways operated in the low 80s/high 70s all his career. Or maybe, looking down the list of English bowlers who did well in Australia in the last 30 years, Tremlett.... Bresnan....Robinson.... what is the possible similarity in all of these? I can't put my finger on it. Meanwhile, how did those snorting quicks picked to unleash fire do? Maybe we can sum it up with arguably one of the most famous balls in Ashes history barely hitting the wicket.

Scott Boland has the best average ever recorded on Aussie pitches.... he was described in the last Ashes series by Mark Taylor as "the Aussie Robinson".... but yeah, averaging 12 a wicket on those decks is meaningless to Rob Key - he knows best.

[andy]

Cook's use of the kookaburra is also what the England hierarchy like...he excelled it with last season in the CC and at a time where most England bowlers struggle with it his usage of it is worth a look at a higher level....no one is saying cook will excel on the international stage however he is definitely worth looking at given his ridiculous record over the last few years in the county championship

[sussexpob]

Cook's use of the kookaburra is also what the England hierarchy like...he excelled it with last season in the CC and at a time where most England bowlers struggle with it his usage of it is worth a look at a higher level...

Imagine trying this argument in another sport. Max Verstappen smashes everyone for years, other people can't get near him in superior cars, his team-mates are languishing in midfield in the same equipment as him... he does it in the rain, in the snow, in desert heat, at night, in the day..... Rather than conclude he is a generational talent and is just flat out quick, you refuse to believe it based on a counter-factual idea that his skills are somewhat inadequate, and use an example like "his late breaking style does not suit tracks with more left turns", when in actual fact all the people who win races with left turns break at the same point. You then remove a wheel from all the cars, and he wins by 2 laps. At that point you decide driving on three wheels proves he has talent.

Could you imagine how mental that argument is? Because that is basically Rob Key's argument. It doesn't take a ball with no seam on spongey April pitches in Derbyshire to tell me a guy with 300 consecutive wickets at 16 runs a piece can bowl.

I would have said anyone with half a brain would assume he can bowl.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Maybe an early season Martin Saggers type pick. Destined for 1-2 caps.

[sussexpob]

Rather than conclude he is a generational talent and is just flat out quick, you refuse to believe it based on a counter-factual idea that his skills are somewhat inadequate, and use an example like "his late breaking style does not suit tracks with more left turns", when in actual fact all the people who win races with left turns break at the same point. You then remove a wheel from all the cars, and he wins by 2 laps. At that point you decide driving on three wheels proves he has talent

I actually met a random guy at a Union game a while back who was Schalke head of youth development. Now retired, and moved to Brussels, but we bump into each other a lot at games and he's an amazingly interesting guy (I think he is actually involved in Unions scouting on some level part-time, but he seems too modest to talk about it). Either way, its enlightening to hear about the approaches that German Football have to this sort of thing over the years. He credits a lot of their success down to the avoidance of these phantom metrics, and avoidance of false equivalence in analytics, or accepting realities that don't actually exist - I guess this might be a reason we get on so much, as I totally agree.

Why do we spend so much time talking about players chance of success or skills not suiting certain things that in reality do not matter. If something is so obviously true, then it can be proven, with facts or something more than "it just is". Is there proof sheer pace works? I mean, lets remember testing in the 1980s had all those tear away quicks as not being at all that fast, so you can't even say 85mph Mike Holding proves the rule. Let alone 80mph Imran, or 76mph Richie Hadlee... (in fact, they prove the opposite at the lower end).

I remember right at the end of their careers, Ambrose and Walsh came to England in 2000. Neither was quick anymore, 80mph not much after.... both bowled as well as anyone I've ever seen. Control, rhythm, accuracy, ability to move the ball....

Walsh took something staggering like 35 wickets @ 12. Ambrose took wickets under 20..... take the pace away, they were no worse off. Why? Because the quality was always there in other forms. Especially Ambrose. But for all the deadly 90mph stuff that grabs YT highlights, it was Ambrose's pinpoint accuracy that made him the bowler he was.

Hit line and length 99% balls, you will be great regardless if you bowl at 91 or 79 mph.

[Slipstream]

Cook 75-79 mph bowler. Doesn't have height like Robinson. Will he become like Woakes, good in England but not overseas?

It's hard to tell but not a favourite of mine.

My six bowlers for Australia

Atkinson
Tongue
Stokes
Carse
Wood
Archer

.

[Arthur Crabtree]

England have stuck with Potts even when given chances to shuffle him out.

[sussexpob]

My six bowlers for Australia

Atkinson
Tongue
Stokes
Carse
Wood
Archer
.

I mean, considering the injury history of this lot, do you really think you can count on any of them to be in Australia?

Stokes bowling form is bang average now, his away form since Covid is a bit tragic, and gets worse in Australia. I cant see Wood ever playing a game again at this point, or will just get injured after five minutes anyway - but at least Super Injury Man has played a FC game in the last 4 years, which is more than Archer can boast. And Atkinson has had more back injuries than Mike Atherton. Tongue, again, coming of a big injury - he was saying in the press the other day it took some experimental treatment to save his career, so it doesn't shout reliability. I am not sure about Carse - but his selection was a wild card. If his form dips, how long do England stick with him?

Its not that much of a stretch to think none of those players will be in OZ doing much bowling.