alfie wrote: I think it is reasonable to assert that high pace and serious spin are often important in those lands. Obviously the pace has to be allied to the skills to deploy it effectively - pace is of course not everything ; but if you don't have at least one or two bowlers capable of delivering at high speed (and/or bounce) you are at a considerable disadvantage in Australia. (The England side of 2010/11 was successful without an extreme speed option , yes : but Tremlett's height was a very significant factor - and that side had an unusually dominant batting lie-up) Look at previous wins in Australia and you think Willis Snow Tyson... I think looking for effective high speed options is a worthy cause with an eye to Ashes tours so will not mark Key down for that intent
alfie wrote:Obviously the pace has to be allied to the skills to deploy it effectively - pace is of course not everything
alfie wrote:To be fair to Key , it is pretty obvious what he is after is development of bowlers capable of performing well in overseas conditions - notably Australia and India , both not just strong teams at present but also places in which England have hugely struggled in recent years.
I think it is reasonable to assert that high pace and serious spin are often important in those lands.
sussexpob wrote:alfie wrote: I think it is reasonable to assert that high pace and serious spin are often important in those lands. Obviously the pace has to be allied to the skills to deploy it effectively - pace is of course not everything ; but if you don't have at least one or two bowlers capable of delivering at high speed (and/or bounce) you are at a considerable disadvantage in Australia. (The England side of 2010/11 was successful without an extreme speed option , yes : but Tremlett's height was a very significant factor - and that side had an unusually dominant batting lie-up) Look at previous wins in Australia and you think Willis Snow Tyson... I think looking for effective high speed options is a worthy cause with an eye to Ashes tours so will not mark Key down for that intent
Let's just take the Ashes players performance away in Australia since I have been watching cricket (post 1990). I cant comment adequately before this period. If we group players into their pace capabilities and check their performances, does it hold true that extra pace is useful? While it adds subjectivity, I am ignoring the official listing on pace from Cricinfo, I believe many are wrong (I list where this is the case, it goes both ways). Some players (DeFreitas, Lewis, Small) played cricket before my era, so my judgements on their pace could be wrong as it might represent their late periods of their career.
Bowlers capable of bowling spells of sheer pace on a consistent basis - ie 88 to 90 mph plus
Mark Wood
Darren Gough (Listed as Fast Medium, regularly got the ball into the high 80s and low 90s)
Simon Jones (Listed as Fast Medium, topped out on effort spells around 93-94mph)
Steve Finn ( Listed as Fast Medium, was capable of low 90s)
Alex Tudor
Craig White (Listed as Fast Medium/Off break, but on his re-selection in the Fletcher era, he was one of the quickest bowlers in the world. I think he peaked about 95-96mph in one test v WI).
Devon Malcolm
Andrew Flintoff (Fast Medium, regularly went over 90mph)
Martin McCague
Saj Mahmood (Listed as Fast Medium, but he was picked with a terrible FC record on the basis he was capable of easily bowling 90 plus)
Steve Harmison (Listed as Fast Medium on Cricinfo, was always listed Fast in his playing days)
Boyd Rankin (Has been listed as both Fast and Fast Medium in his career, was picked on his pace for the 2013 tour)
163 wickets @ 45.48 per wicket collectively
Fast Medium bowlers who bowled in the latter half of the 80s more consistently, but incapable of 90mph plus sustained
Jake Ball
Tom Curran
Gladstone Small
Stuart Broad (long career so a hard one to judge. Ranged from just under fast to medium fast, so I take the average)
Ben Stokes
78 wickets @ 40 per wicket colectively
Bowlers who typically bowled in the lower half/mid of the 80s throughout their career
Chris Lewis
Dean Headley
Ollie Robinson
Tim Bresnan
Alan Mullaly
Gus Fraser
Chris Tremlett
Jimmy Anderson (included here, could argue up to the 2006/07 Ashes he belongs in the Fast category, but he had a horror tour. His selection here does not benefit my argument)
Andrew Caddick
Craig Overton
Dom Cork
Matthew Hoggard
Chris Woakes
278 wickets @ 33.90 per wicket
The figures speak for themselves. The slower the bowler, the better the results. The "increased pace does well in Australia" thing is a total myth.
alfie wrote:You cannot be serious ! Generally speaking , the better the bowler , the better the results is a more sensible suggestion. And all those figures you have thrown together prove nothing as they do not take into account different circumstances over thirty odd years , to say nothing of individual fluctuations of form (and pace !) of different bowlers...
Durhamfootman wrote:Yorkshire are going to have to bowl well. Middlesex just having to chase 158
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Durhamfootman wrote:Yorkshire are going to have to bowl well. Middlesex just having to chase 158
In fact, only Essex have won at all.
Durhamfootman wrote:
Durham have declared and set Worcs 458 to win. There will probably be a bit of rain around tomorrow morning, but Worcs have lots of time to chase it down without taking risks and given how easily and quickly Durham scored yesterday, I'm not sanguine that this was a smart declaration. I hope I'm wrong
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