NZ Test tour of Eng, June 2-27

[alfie]

Hi Arthur & Sussex...thanks for comments above.

Should clarify that I am certainly not suggesting one win solves all issues , etc... I just feel that , while indeed this match was largely won by "the usual suspects" , there were enough signs of an overall more positive attitude in the way the team went about the game that it seems reasonable to be just a little more optimistic than beforehand...

Guess it depends on one's personal outlook but it does seem to me that a lot of England supporters (perhaps understandably !) tend to almost look for the negative aspects of any performance , rather than take heart from the good parts. Maybe because I have lived in Australia so long I find this slightly strange ; and I empathize more with BFL's view of this as "baby steps" - but in the right direction. No huge disagreement on the details anyway and will be happy to discuss further as the series progresses and we see whether this was a one-off or an indication of a genuine improvement.

I do agree with you , Sussex , that England had a bit more in the lucky breaks department : principally the no ball that allowed Stokes to survive , as I doubt they'd have made the target without his innings . Although should point out that when English bowlers made similar important errors in Australia a few months ago the general (and , I think , correct) consensus was "silly bowler mistake" rather than "lucky Aussies"...

I am looking forward to the remaining matches as I fully expect NZ to bounce back strongly on Friday - and England will certainly need to sharpen up on some aspects of their game if they wish to build on this good start. But I do so with a bit more confidence than I had a week ago ...and a great deal more than I had after stumps on day two

[sussexpob]

Still, I dispute that Foakes is England's best wicket keeper. I'd give that honour to Sarah Taylor, although I guess she's retired now. Best keeper I've ever seen play live - her reaction time was just stunning.

Taylor is certainly without compare in the context of the womans game, especially standing up to the stumps where her ability in stumping people is extraordinary... but the pace involved is so much less, and the reaction time needed so much less. So its hard to compare like for like. I wonder how many average male keepers would look amazing keeping to 65-70mph bowling

[sussexpob]

Guess it depends on one's personal outlook but it does seem to me that a lot of England supporters (perhaps understandably !) tend to almost look for the negative aspects of any performance , rather than take heart from the good parts. Maybe because I have lived in Australia so long I find this slightly strange ; and I empathize more with BFL's view of this as "baby steps" - but in the right direction. No huge disagreement on the details anyway and will be happy to discuss further as the series progresses and we see whether this was a one-off or an indication of a genuine improvement

At the start of the series if you had asked me what my expectations and barometer for measuring the improvement of the team would have been, I would have told you that the list after the West Indies would have been roughly:

1. Can Lees translate an impressive dedication to batting time into cashing in runs - Not achieved. He once again got 80 odd balls in and got out with not many runs.
2. Can Crawley consistently show he can defend his wicket - Not achieved. It looked another Crawley affair of excellent stroke play and zero defence. He went after the bowling like he knew his wicket wouldnt last long.
3. Can Pope last long enough early doors before he gets his eye in, to unleash his cracking play after - Nope. Failed early in both innings. Not achieved.
4. Can Jonny Bairstow do anything useful with the bat to justify his place.... Not achieved
5. Can Foakes prove he can play at this level - Finally a Positive
6. Can Potts justify the call up - Positive
7. Can an England spinner, whoever it is, even temporarily end the selection debate - Not achieved
8. Questions about Stokes Captaincy and workload - Wouldnt be answered in one test, but this test hasnt flagged an issues.

None of the questions I had related to Anderson not being anything but great, Root being anything but a World Class productive player, Broad's quality on English pitches to take wickets, or Ben's production at times when the pressure is on.

So I dont really think its a negative/positive sort of debate. I just dont think in the grand scheme of the result and how it was achieved, many of the questions I had going in have been answered.

And yet, in saying that and dwelling on it, I do think we get into the danger of being sucked into ONLY that debate. I was clear I would be positive even if England were competitive and lost every test. So before this gets pigeon holed into the "NEGATIVE" tray, let me say for the third (ish) time that I congratulate England for winning this match against expectations, and hopefully they can build on it again.

We aren't actually that dis-similarly aligned, I just think the natural path of the conversation has steered us away from each other's points. But thats sometimes how debates work.

[sussexpob]

One thing I would say too is, often lost in his bad captaincy and leadership record and the teams horror show performances, is just what a great player Joe Root is. Despite being constantly messed about, and throughout a massive part of his career being the only batsman worthy of being in a good functioning side, he's churned out runs at a great rate.

Average around 50 from 10,000 runs, in an era of massively declining average scores..... Certainly thrown his hat very much into the ring of England's greatest test bats of all time.

He's 31, but I guess he might have more miles on the clock that the average... wonder if Tendulkar's record is in trouble? I cant see him sticking around that long personally, I could see him retiring relatively early like Cook.

[Arthur Crabtree]

He seems to have grown out of that habit of getting out between 50-100.

Should have given Joe a nod for that 10000 run achievement. Fine effort, especially in a struggling side.

[bigfluffylemon]

Still, I dispute that Foakes is England's best wicket keeper. I'd give that honour to Sarah Taylor, although I guess she's retired now. Best keeper I've ever seen play live - her reaction time was just stunning.

Taylor is certainly without compare in the context of the womans game, especially standing up to the stumps where her ability in stumping people is extraordinary... but the pace involved is so much less, and the reaction time needed so much less. So its hard to compare like for like. I wonder how many average male keepers would look amazing keeping to 65-70mph bowling

Of course it's hard to compare like for like, but I was fortunate enough to see her keep a few times and she pulled off some stumpings that were scarcely believable, she moved so fast. Perfect anticipation and technique.

[bigfluffylemon]

Presumably same team for Nottingham, with Leach back for Parkinson if fit? Or bring in Brook?

Given A&B's history at Trent Bridge, England should have a reasonable chance Of getting NZ cheaply again. Whether they can turn that into a win will depend of course on the batting...

[Durhamfootman]

Still, I dispute that Foakes is England's best wicket keeper. I'd give that honour to Sarah Taylor, although I guess she's retired now. Best keeper I've ever seen play live - her reaction time was just stunning.

Taylor is certainly without compare in the context of the womans game, especially standing up to the stumps where her ability in stumping people is extraordinary... but the pace involved is so much less, and the reaction time needed so much less. So its hard to compare like for like. I wonder how many average male keepers would look amazing keeping to 65-70mph bowling

I seem to recall that she also played for an Aussie men's team at one point in her career. Not sure what the level was though, so the comment about the pace of the bowling might still be very valid

[Durhamfootman]

Presumably same team for Nottingham, with Leach back for Parkinson if fit? Or bring in Brook?

I think I read somewhere that Leach won't be able to play in the second test, but would be available for the third. They may decide not to play a spinner at TB and rely on some overs from Honest Joe. That would certainly help to get an extra bat in. Is Harry Brook another number 5?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Yes.

Give Parkie a chance if he's next up. Can't write him off on one innings. If they avoid him he'll feel up against it when he plays again, maybe in Asia.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Long tail though!

[Durhamfootman]

There was a time when the England test team had 3 wicketkeepers in it. Now there 3 (maybe 4) number 5's. Maybe there's a lesson that could be learned from the results of the 3 keeper days

Has Ben Compton played for England at all? I know he's been playing on some flat old pieces of nonsense but so have lots of players and few are doing better than him

It looks like only Harry Brook is competing with him and he's another number 5 (thanks Arthur)

[Slipstream]

Presumably same team for Nottingham, with Leach back for Parkinson if fit? Or bring in Brook?

Given A&B's history at Trent Bridge, England should have a reasonable chance Of getting NZ cheaply again. Whether they can turn that into a win will depend of course on the batting...

Last time Jadeja 16 overs 0 wickets. England didn't bowl any spin. I would just rely on Root if we need any. Saying that can we get Brook in the team, and Stokes to bowl more than 9 overs. I feel he didn't bowl his fair share. I have a feeling McCullum will ask Patel if we need spin and he will say yes.

[bigfluffylemon]

I'm usually not a fan of going in without a frontline spinner, but if England are going to do it anywhere, TB is the place.

[alfie]

Won't astonish me if Overton plays in place of the spinner , since Stokes seems - at this time - somewhat reluctant to bowl much himself. Not saying I'd do so ; but suspect they might. Less likely to go in batsman-heavy at the cost of bowling options.

Have to look at the pitch of course - though it appears both teams failed to read the first one very well