bigfluffylemon wrote:The other things that staggers me was imagine if he had been caught? It's a yellow card offence at least - what's the backlash if your sporting god gets caught and penalised for cheating? If he'd been caught, and Argentina had lost, would he have been vilified instead? Obviously we'll never know
sussexpob wrote:Alviro Patterson wrote:Watched the Diego Maradona documentary on Channel 4.
Often getting kicked on the shins whilst he had the ball, but still kept charging forward and not feigned injury or looked for a penalty.
Pure respect on that alone, Maradona would boss it on a cold Tuesday night in Stoke.
I never watched it, I have no idea why as I loved the Senna movie the guy did. I guess the most famous is the full on riot he had at Barcelona.... after being kicked all game, and it ends in a maul, you see the smallest guy on the field charging into the ruck with Bruce Lee kicks and throwing punches.
The man was insane. Totally bonkers.... but as you say, his bravery and flat out balls are truly something to behold. Never backed out of anything.
sussexpob wrote:Arthur Crabtree wrote:Not these arguments, but a similar abstract analysis of Maradona I've heard before used to justify the hand of god goal, but I'm not sure it works for me. Mainly because it excuses the kind of intolerance that sometimes seems evident in why England fans get so angry about it and are so unwilling to forget, despite the whole forest of gamesmanship that has grown up around this incident over the past 34 years
The point wasnt to justify the hand of God. He cheated, you cant really defend. But should that come to define him? As you point out, I could point out a cheater in every single game of football I ever watch; the wanton dives, the play acting etc. Someone who dives and wins a penalty, which happens in masses of games, indulges in the same level of cheating. The hype of the cheat to me lies in a sort of exceptionalism light that English people see themselves in. When Rooney scored 20 penalties for England from dives, he was a salt of the Earth honest Englishman, but Maradona was a cheater. There is sort of racial superiority view so neatly tied in with it.... a great motivator to ignore it in his legacy. I find people who want to dwell on it or define him by it largely have ulterior motives.
sussexpob wrote:Its so obvious because we are so happy to ignore it reflected in those we are more inclined to like. As an example, how many cricket fans would say Sachin is a cheater? Didnt he get busted for ball tampering at one stage? You never see that mentioned, yet Steve Smith will pay for it for the rest of his days. How different is the same act punished or remembered?
The Tendulkar incident was ridiculous - the BCCI cried racism and used its political might to make the ICC back down, as the reaction in India was one of outrage at the umpire, not Sachin. The differences I guess are that firstly Smith's offence was clearly part of a premeditated and ongoing plan to cheat, to the extent of bringing foreign objects onto the field to tamper with the ball. Tendulkar's may have been, but there's no proof
Smith was pretty popular in Australia before the incident - not revered like a god, but definitely one of the more adored members of the team unlike Warner. So the public were predisposed to like him, but the condemnation was swift and brutal.
We're all willing to forgive our own sporting heroes while condemning the opposition's. How many times have we complained against a marginal call for our side, while been quite happy to let cheating or umpiring errors in our favour stand. Kasprowicz probably wasn't out in 2005. Stokes was wrongly given not-out lbw in 2019 at Headingley (with Australia having no reviews left), and was awarded six runs in the World Cup chase from the overthrow incident when he probably shouldn't have been. Are we complaining? Or are we interpreting events in our favour to support our own biases?
bigfluffylemon wrote:We're all willing to forgive our own sporting heroes while condemning the opposition's. How many times have we complained against a marginal call for our side, while been quite happy to let cheating or umpiring errors in our favour stand.
[/quote]sussexpob wrote:The Tendulkar incident was ridiculous - the BCCI cried racism and used its political might to make the ICC back down, as the reaction in India was one of outrage at the umpire, not Sachin. The differences I guess are that firstly Smith's offence was clearly part of a premeditated and ongoing plan to cheat, to the extent of bringing foreign objects onto the field to tamper with the ball. Tendulkar's may have been, but there's no proof
What I do find interesting is, well for me anyway (this isnt a personal attack), iis what I see as a contradiction in your reasoning. If one should see cheating as cheating and not try to rationalise the pressures a man is under, then why should the pre-meditation or nature of the act also be weighed up? I dont think there should be much difference, if someone sets out to cheat and cheats its no different to if someone looks at the scoreboard seeing a game slip away and in the spur of the moment pick at the seam. The severity is in the intended result, not the manner conducted. Pre-meditation and a history of doing it should, imo, just be looked as multiple incidents of cheating each taken as their own with an accumulation of punishments.
sussexpob wrote:Smith was pretty popular in Australia before the incident - not revered like a god, but definitely one of the more adored members of the team unlike Warner. So the public were predisposed to like him, but the condemnation was swift and brutal.
I feel like I need to point out before saying what I will, that this is meant to be no damning judgement on Australian culture in particular. I have already stated my disgust at English people doing the same thing. Its a uniquely first world western problem where people have a sort of inbuilt superiority and inability to recognize their own flaws. But....
I find the outrage in Australia at the issue rather puzzling. I didnt find it genuine at all. If people really did care about playing hard but fair, as the much touted quote goes, then why did they overlook the toxicity of the culture for so long? For me this is a sort of cleansing of collective guilt and an attempt to rebrand oneself as innocent and showing principles , when in actuality the only problem anyone had is the team got caught and everyone got embarrassed when it was uncovered. If the team hadnt got caught, I doubt many people would have cared.
We're all willing to forgive our own sporting heroes while condemning the opposition's. How many times have we complained against a marginal call for our side, while been quite happy to let cheating or umpiring errors in our favour stand. Kasprowicz probably wasn't out in 2005. Stokes was wrongly given not-out lbw in 2019 at Headingley (with Australia having no reviews left), and was awarded six runs in the World Cup chase from the overthrow incident when he probably shouldn't have been. Are we complaining? Or are we interpreting events in our favour to support our own biases?
sussexpob wrote:Of course that helps. I honestly think I judge things objectively, much to some peoples disgust here. Of course my bias comes into play a lot too, I cant deny that.
bigfluffylemon wrote:Premeditation is generally considered worse than 'spur of the moment' action (see how several legal systems treat premeditated murder v heat of the moment) because you've conducted a rational assessment of your action and decided to cheat and that you can get away with it. That seems to be how the public perceive things. In terms of psychology, that's probably fair - you've heard of the fast and slow thinking systems? There's a good deal of research that says when we act quickly/impulsively, we don't do a rational assessment of the potential costs and benefits of our behaviour, but work on assumptions and shortcuts. But we still punish wrongdoing where there was no premeditation
Of course, a belief that we are less biased than others is in itself a known bias.
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