Fourth Test: India v England, 8-12 Dec.

[hopeforthebest]

Ashwin was nye on unplayable so little blame can be attached to the players dismissed this morning. What's the difference between a doosra and Ashwin''s carron ball that turns the other way?

[meninblue]

Good post Adi. In fairness, India are a very good side with a near flawless recent home record.

Trott retired from internationals.

I am still sceptical that we will win out of Asia. A good side has to win everywhere like old West Indian team and team of Steve Waugh, Smith and Ponting who won both home and away.

[rich1uk]

I like Bell but his time looked up and still does. I don't think he scored that many county runs last season?

he averaged under 30 for the last 2 years of test cricket he played, and under 35 for the last three

no-one can say he wasn't given a fair chance or that he was dropped too early, well i can think of a couple that might

and last year in county cricket he averaged around 36 so didn't do anything to demand a recall either

[hopeforthebest]

Lack of runs for VJ's various opening partners too (apart from Parthiv, who was a stop gap). Not much from seamers other than Shami (admittedly, with little encouragement). A few fielding lapses. If we're judging against perfection. But far too good at home for any side right now. Pakistan would be interesting.

Problem is Pakistan are an aging team.

[Arthur Crabtree]

The carom is done by a counter flick by the finger (and with a straight elbow...) rather than a doosra which relies on an adjustment of the wrist. Apparently they were bowled back in the fities, but I only heard that since they starting being bowled recently.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Lack of runs for VJ's various opening partners too (apart from Parthiv, who was a stop gap). Not much from seamers other than Shami (admittedly, with little encouragement). A few fielding lapses. If we're judging against perfection. But far too good at home for any side right now. Pakistan would be interesting.

Problem is Pakistan are an aging team.

Not inexperienced then!

[rich1uk]

Ashwin was nye on unplayable so little blame can be attached to the players dismissed this morning. What's the difference between a doosra and Ashwin''s carron ball that turns the other way?

the carron ball is gripped with one finger bent behind the ball and then that finger is used to flick the ball out creating a bit of topspin i think

a doosra is more just done with the action itself

[bigfluffylemon]

Fair point on Bell, but he couldn't have done much worse than Duckett or Ballance, at least.

Ashwin was nye on unplayable so little blame can be attached to the players dismissed this morning. What's the difference between a doosra and Ashwin''s carron ball that turns the other way?

the carron ball is gripped with one finger bent behind the ball and then that finger is used to flick the ball out creating a bit of topspin i think

a doosra is more just done with the action itself

And if you listen to the likes of Graeme Swann, the doosra is impossible to bowl legally.

If you can take some positives out of this, England have identified a couple of promising batsmen, and Rashid has improved as a bowler. I suspect England will line up for the first test of the summer as follows (fitness permitting):

Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler, Moeen/Rashid, Woakes, Broad, Anderson

Obviously early days for Hammed and Jennings, but they will probably both be given a run for a few games now.

[rich1uk]

Fair point on Bell, but he couldn't have done much worse than Duckett or Ballance, at least.

probably not but you cant keep carrying a guy averaging under 30 for that length of time and have to hope the guys coming through will make the step up, its how you handle that transition thats important

[Arthur Crabtree]

Who will be captain?

[meninblue]

Lack of runs for VJ's various opening partners too (apart from Parthiv, who was a stop gap). Not much from seamers other than Shami (admittedly, with little encouragement). A few fielding lapses. If we're judging against perfection. But far too good at home for any side right now. Pakistan would be interesting.

Arthur, i would not take pacers performance very seriously here. Shami , Umesh, Ishant and Bhuvi are our best although not world class, so we will have to stick with them in favorable conditions.

[rich1uk]

Who will be captain?

i still think it'll be cook

root is the only alternative and with him playing all three formats they wont want to burn him out

and despite what cook has said he does not strike me as someone who will be comfortable playing under another captain, we saw how stubborn he was about his ODI spot and being captain last year

[Arthur Crabtree]

Good points. I wonder a bit that once you start thinking about your stepping down, you've partly made the decision to do it. it's a hard job to do without absolute certainty and commitment.

And I think he's doing the job poorly. I doubt Cook thinks that though. I expect ke views himself the best candidate for the job, as he did in the ODI side. England blossomed when he left, and it'd be interesting if the same happened in Tests.

[rich1uk]

Good points. I wonder a bit that once you start thinking about your stepping down, you've partly made the decision to do it. it's a hard job to do without absolute certainty and commitment.

And I think he's doing the job poorly. I doubt Cook thinks that though. I expect ke views himself the best candidate for the job, as he did in the ODI side. England blossomed when he left, and it'd be interesting if the same happened in Tests.

your first line there is the important part, he must have been thinking about it or wouldn't have brought it up, altho i dont know if it was an answer to a direct question or not, the fact he mentioned 2 months suggests there is a possibility he will give it up. everyone reaches a point where they just dont want the hassle any more, even someone as stubborn as he is.

i'm just not convinced that his remarks about looking forward to just being a batsman and standing at first slip without having any responsibility fits with what we have seen of his character over the last few years. it could actually negatively impact his batting if he feels he doesn't need to lead by example anymore, if that makes sense.

[meninblue]

Good points. I wonder a bit that once you start thinking about your stepping down, you've partly made the decision to do it. it's a hard job to do without absolute certainty and commitment.

And I think he's doing the job poorly. I doubt Cook thinks that though. I expect ke views himself the best candidate for the job, as he did in the ODI side. England blossomed when he left, and it'd be interesting if the same happened in Tests.

Imo adding Cook to attrition or retirment pool of Swann, Monty, Strauss, KP,Bell,Trott would be suicidal.

There is too much of attrition one after other due to retirment or sackings which imo will impact any team.

Cook did declare late in the test which cost them match but was he the only decission maker. Was the coach not involved in late declaration. Chances that Joe will be give feeedom to set declaration timing on his own are also less. Joe may also struggle due to influence of management in some decissions. Will he be dropped as well then.