Fourth Test: India v England, 8-12 Dec.

[hopeforthebest]

i agree actually that we need to be positive

the problem isn't being positive its making good decisions on a ball by ball basis

executing a good plan badly doesn't make it a bad plan

As I clearly said his batsmen don't interpret his call in the way you describe and I don't think Bayliss does either. He wants the scoring rate to flow and has stated so. George Dobell in his article clearly is critical of his latest call to arms.

he wants us to not get bogged down and just allow the bowlers and fielding captain to be able to dictate the pace of the game

batsmen have to find ways to put some pressure back on the bowlers and not just wait for a ball with their name on it

That's just common sense that every coach wants from his batsmen but Dobell interprets his use of the word positivity to mean aggression and number of times he uses it suggests that's precisely what he seeks from the batsmen.

[rich1uk]

we haven't been playing agressively tho and that isn't why we have struggled

we have acually been quite passive for long periods and then played a stupid shot to try and relieve the pressure we allow to build

surely its a better idea to not allow that pressure to build in the first place

kohli has actually been pretty defensive with alot of his field settings and tried to stop the runs flowing, allow the pressure to build and wait for the mistake, and we have made those mistakes

not everyone in the side has the sort of discipline and patience to just try and grind out runs as cook does and expecting them to just start playing like that is as futile as suggesting they go out and be reckless, which from what i can see no-one is doing

what we are seeing here is people using binary arguments, you either grind out runs like cook or you play a shot a ball when the reality needs to be somewhere in between. playing aggressively isn't a bad thing as long as it takes account of the game situation and conditions, going into a shell and just trying to survive is almost always a bad thing.

[hopeforthebest]

I don't need a lecture on how to play cricket as if I'm against batsmen scoring runs but I don't want my batsmen to play test cricket as if it's a one day game. Top batsmen already know what's required of them to play an innings or they wouldn't be, or shouldn't be, in the England squad. A coach who frequently states in public he want's more positive play from his batsmen is going to be seen as asking for higher run rates, whether he means that or not.

[rich1uk]

I don't need a lecture on how to play cricket as if I'm against batsmen scoring runs but I don't want my batsmen to play test cricket as if it's a one day game. Top batsmen already know what's required of them to play an innings or they wouldn't be, or shouldn't be, in the England squad. A coach who frequently states in public he want's more positive play from his batsmen is going to be seen as asking for higher run rates, whether he means that or not.

surely a coaches job is to set the tone he wants his team to follow

we have been too passive

we have allowed ourselves to get bogged down

we have put ourselves under pressure and made mistakes

i assume you are quite happy with that if you dont think the coach should be suggesting we be more positive

[hopeforthebest]

I don't need a lecture on how to play cricket as if I'm against batsmen scoring runs but I don't want my batsmen to play test cricket as if it's a one day game. Top batsmen already know what's required of them to play an innings or they wouldn't be, or shouldn't be, in the England squad. A coach who frequently states in public he want's more positive play from his batsmen is going to be seen as asking for higher run rates, whether he means that or not.

surely a coaches job is to set the tone he wants his team to follow

we have been too passive

we have allowed ourselves to get bogged down

we have put ourselves under pressure and made mistakes

i assume you are quite happy with that if you dont think the coach should be suggesting we be more positive

Of course I'm not happy with England's batting but many dismissals have been through intemperate play. Root has brought several promising innings to an end by attempting to score across the line and Moeen has hardly been out to anything but an attempt at some aggressive stroke. Stoke of course has free rein to play as he pleases. The only player who has been out defending is Duckett who has no idea of how to defend. If every batsman leaves the dressing room with the words 'be positive' ringing in his ears, we shouldn't be surprised by what we see from them.

[rich1uk]

I don't need a lecture on how to play cricket as if I'm against batsmen scoring runs but I don't want my batsmen to play test cricket as if it's a one day game. Top batsmen already know what's required of them to play an innings or they wouldn't be, or shouldn't be, in the England squad. A coach who frequently states in public he want's more positive play from his batsmen is going to be seen as asking for higher run rates, whether he means that or not.

surely a coaches job is to set the tone he wants his team to follow

we have been too passive

we have allowed ourselves to get bogged down

we have put ourselves under pressure and made mistakes

i assume you are quite happy with that if you dont think the coach should be suggesting we be more positive

Of course I'm not happy with England's batting but many dismissals have been through intemperate play. Root has brought several promising innings to an end by attempting to score across the line and Moeen has hardly been out to anything but an attempt at some aggressive stroke. Stoke of course has free rein to play as he pleases. The only player who has been out defending is Duckett who has no idea of how to defend. If every batsman leaves the dressing room with the words 'be positive' ringing in his ears, we shouldn't be surprised by what we see from them.

moeen ali in the series so far has a strike-rate of 42, that hardly suggests he is going out to play positively

just because someone plays a reckless shot to get out doesn't mean they have played too positively, it just means they played a bad shot to get out

and those bad shots have usually been the result of india being able to build pressure

[westoelad]

But that displays the weakness in England's approach in that they succumb to pressure and play a rash shot. It's a war of attrition on turning wickets with patience being the key. Cook and Hameed set an example in the last session on the penultimate day only for reckless batting the next day to ruin it. I don't agree with this being aggressive mantra in the early stages of a Test innings unless you've got a Hayden or Trescothic. Just wonder what might have been if we'd had a top three of Cook, Hameed and Jennings.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Maybe it would be better if Bayliss delivered a more nuanced message for public consumption. Though, the reaction of Taylor and Compton in SA makes people wonder (I think) if the message the players are getting isn't that sophisticated.

My impression and memory of this 'attacking brand of cricket' is that it was something that emerged in the aftermath of the last Ashes whitewash when the ECB noticed that the team wasn't that popular and thought playing more 'entertaining' cricket would be a better sell. They even briefly toyed with the idea of playing more sportingly. My feeling is that this is a red herring, and people are being turned off because:

Many established followers have felt uncomfortable with the ECB and their appointees, and in particular during the KP affair.

And new followers are not emerging because the game has hardly any visible profile.

[rich1uk]

we obviously dont know the detail behind the soundbite but i think people are over-reacting a bit to it

surely saying we need to be more positive is a relative term compared to how we have been performing, and that performance has in general meant struggling to rotate the strike, not punishing the bad ball and not putting any pressure back on the bowlers

i wouldn't expect the likes of cook or hameed, if he had still been there, to change their game, and assume jennings wont either. its how they play and it works. i dont think anyone expects or wants cook to turn into hayden or sehwag. to me its about the reverse, i dont want to see root, bairstow, ali or stokes et al try to turn into chris tavare either.

and i repeat what i have said every time this debate about a positive approach comes up, being more positive doesn't mean going out and playing like its a t20, we dont live in a binary world, its about not allowing yourself to get bogged down and just trying to survive.

[Making_Splinters]

I think that, Rich largely nails this on the head. Sussex has commented before that there is a trend that when more aggressive batsmen are selected for the Test side, the media and fans start questioning whether they can adapt to being a Test player, rather than letting them get on and play their own game. I'd agree with this given that even on here, a couple of failure from Duckett immediately brought up the, "Is he a Test player?" question.

Personally, I'd say that the press needs to get used to the idea that Test players are going to get more aggressive due to the fact there is a heavy focus on limited overs cricket both domestically and internationally, if anything it's a real anomaly that Hameed made it through the ranks playing the way he does rather than any indication that these players exist on a wider scale.

The real problem is that younger players are not learning the balance between attack and defence required to succeed at Test level, and this is hardly an English problem alone.

[sussexpob]

I think there is a naturally inbuilt suspicion of aggressive test players in England. Kevin Pietersen was a clear example of this, considering his stock in the lineup, there was always a section of English fans who really didnt like him and would jump all over him when he got out playing an over aggressive shot. Someone like Hales was always going to have to do more in CC to get opportunities in tests too. And one can only see how quickly people jumped all over Hameed, his SR in batting if anything is a huge validation of his talent in this way. Low SR in most fans minds = ablity or evidence of superior concentration or ability to keep their wicket.

Having said that, I think that test cricket is turning in the last few years. We are going back to the sensibilities of the 1990s if you ask me. Conditions are suiting bowlers more, there are bowlers with ever lowering averages emerging all over the place compared to 10 years ago, and with it I think you are seeing a return of most teams to batting more conservatively.

The emergence of players like Hameed dont suprise me. I think you will see more of these types of players coming through in the next few years. As the ball gets a bit more dominant, players like Sehwag wont cut it with their all out assault type cricket.

[Arthur Crabtree]

England aren't batting slowly anyway. Each of the top five highest innings were scored at more than a run every other ball. Bairstow, Stokes and Root have strike rates over 50. Mo and Cook are over 40. Only Haseeb has been scoring slowly (34).

[Arthur Crabtree]

Leach took 6-1-7-3 today.

Didn't make any runs though.

What?

[rich1uk]

England aren't batting slowly anyway. Each of the top five highest innings were scored at more than a run every other ball. Bairstow, Stokes and Root have strike rates over 50. Mo and Cook are over 40. Only Haseeb has been scoring slowly (34).

not sure stats by themselves tell the whole story tho AC

there have been prolonged periods where we have been bogged down and lost wickets in clumps during those periods

kohli and his bowlers aren't having any pressure put on them to change fields or do something different, they can just stick to their plans and wait for the mistakes

[meninblue]

Not everyone batting aggresive will be as succesful in tests like Sehwag who had avg of 49 and SR 83. It is very tough to have that combination of average and SR.

It's surprising that players with good technique, better patience and temperament are expected to play agressive brand of cricket. Batting pace may also consider the match situation.

Not everyone in England team can score at SR of 69 like Ben. Cook , Joe and Haseeb are expeccted to average more while conpromising on the SR.