2nd Test: India v England at Visakhapatnam on Nov 17-21,

[Arthur Crabtree]

No, I don't think they're being picked for the sake of it.

[rich1uk]

No, I don't think they're being picked for the sake of it.

surely if they aren't test quality spin bowlers than by definition they are just being picked for the sake of having 2 or 3 spinners in the side ?

[Dr Cricket]

simple fact is we are picking spinners for the sake of having spinners in the team even tho they aren't really good enough at this level

I don't agree it's a fact.

you think ansari, rashid and moeen are all test quality spin bowlers ?

Moeen the closest but even then as an batting all rounder and a part time/medium term spin option.
Rashid maybe if he can become a better batsman and play like Ali but not going to happen.
Ansari just no.

[Arthur Crabtree]

There may not be a way to win, but having four pace bowlers bowling gun barrel straight between overs 15-80 isn't going to win the series.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

And they won't get enough work to do. Maybe England should get rid of a spinner, but there's not another batter to pick and they don't need another pace bowler. And Mo is batting at five, so they are only carrying two spinners, just on bowling merit. I accept they've not chosen the party well.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I'm not saying Woakes shouldn't be in the team. I'd like him in the team.

So who'd you drop? Broad? How is Ansari better than even him?

I don't accept even him, as I regard Broad as fine bowler.

[rich1uk]

There may not be a way to win, but having four pace bowlers bowling gun barrel straight between overs 15-80 isn't going to win the series.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

And they won't get enough work to do. Maybe England should get rid of a spinner, but there's not another batter to pick and they don't need another pace bowler. And Mo is batting at five, so they are only carrying two spinners, just on bowling merit. I accept they've not chosen the party well.

there may not be a way to win but i'd prefer to see us lose playing to our strengths than pick players who aren't good enough just so we can say that we played to the percentages

to me thats what we are doing, the theory says we have to play 2 or 3 spinners so we pick 2 or 3 spinners whther they are good enough or not

the theory says you bowl a left-arm spinner to right handed batsmen so ansari gets brought on to bowl first with kohli and pujara together

[Arthur Crabtree]

They also lost in BD due to their spinners. And wasted a lot of the outstanding work done by the seamers done in the UAE last year.

They may well have won in BD with better spinners. But in the game they won, Batty, Mo and Rashid took six of the ten wickets in the second innings to defend a total by a few runs. In the game they lost, Moeen took five in the first innings, Rashid four in the second out of seven for spin. I don't see the answer can be found in setting pace versus spin. But in how you can make the most of both out of necessity.

[Arthur Crabtree]

There may not be a way to win, but having four pace bowlers bowling gun barrel straight between overs 15-80 isn't going to win the series.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

And they won't get enough work to do. Maybe England should get rid of a spinner, but there's not another batter to pick and they don't need another pace bowler. And Mo is batting at five, so they are only carrying two spinners, just on bowling merit. I accept they've not chosen the party well.

there may not be a way to win but i'd prefer to see us lose playing to our strengths than pick players who aren't good enough just so we can say that we played to the percentages

to me thats what we are doing, the theory says we have to play 2 or 3 spinners so we pick 2 or 3 spinners whther they are good enough or not

the theory says you bowl a left-arm spinner to right handed batsmen so ansari gets brought on to bowl first with kohli and pujara together

How do Woakes, Finn and Broad's record on the link say they are good enough and the spinners are not? Stokes is struggling without reverse swing.I don't think that kind of argument is useful, but if they are the strengths preferable to lose with, then maybe they deserve some scrutiny. Of course, they are not doing well because of the conditions, which is why England are in a predicament which isn't easy to get out of. Though, they've probably started the series better than most/I expected. Showing faith in the old traditions probably isn't going to work in this situation. Their stalwarts can't be relied on to save them.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Should have taken Ravi...

[Dr Cricket]

Sometimes Stats don't always give a full picture especially when determining how well people bowl or don't bowl especially in a small sample size.

[rich1uk]

How do Woakes, Finn and Broad's record on the link say they are good enough and the spinners are not? Stokes is struggling without reverse swing.I don't think that kind of argument is useful, but if they are the strengths preferable to lose with, then maybe they deserve some scrutiny. Of course, they are not doing well because of the conditions, which is why England are in a predicament which isn't easy to get out of. Though, they've probably started the series better than most/I expected. Showing faith in the old traditions probably isn't going to work in this situation. Their stalwarts can't be relied on to save them.

but we aren't going to win either by picking spinners who aren't good enough to merit a place just so we can say we picked 2 or 3 spinners

we just lost a test against bangladesh and came very close to losing the series 2-0 because we dont have spinners who are good enough

we'd be as well just playing the extra batsman than picking ansari just to give us a 6th bowler

[Arthur Crabtree]

I'm going out in ten minutes so I can't check, but pretty sure most of the top order wickets have been taken by spin. Stokes cleared up the lower order in BD. Until today.

I'm not making the case that the stats say Broad, Finn and Woakes shouldn't play. Just that spin has to be allowed to play a part. And maybe I think it's not useful to suggest that when the spinners are actually contributing, that is they that should be doing more. They can do enough to play a part, but nothing is going to make them great bowlers. Just as the seamers can't be Steyn, Marshall and Imran.

[Arthur Crabtree]

How do Woakes, Finn and Broad's record on the link say they are good enough and the spinners are not? Stokes is struggling without reverse swing.I don't think that kind of argument is useful, but if they are the strengths preferable to lose with, then maybe they deserve some scrutiny. Of course, they are not doing well because of the conditions, which is why England are in a predicament which isn't easy to get out of. Though, they've probably started the series better than most/I expected. Showing faith in the old traditions probably isn't going to work in this situation. Their stalwarts can't be relied on to save them.

but we aren't going to win either by picking spinners who aren't good enough to merit a place just so we can say we picked 2 or 3 spinners

we just lost a test against bangladesh and came very close to losing the series 2-0 because we dont have spinners who are good enough

we'd be as well just playing the extra batsman than picking ansari just to give us a 6th bowler

I might agree with the last point if GB wasn't the batting reserve. Ansari and Rasid are as likely to score runs as him, currently. Without spin in BD they would have lost 2-0. That's got to be undeniable. As it is, they got a draw.

[Dr Cricket]

Buttler reserve as well no.

[rich1uk]

I'm going out in ten minutes so I can't check, but pretty sure most of the top order wickets have been taken by spin. Stokes cleared up the lower order in BD. Until today.

I'm not making the case that the stats say Broad, Finn and Woakes shouldn't play. Just that spin has to be allowed to play a part. And maybe I think it's not useful to suggest that when the spinners are actually contributing, that is they that should be doing more. They can do enough to play a part, but nothing is going to make them great bowlers. Just as the seamers can't be Steyn, Marshall and Imran.

when they were playing on pitches that favoured spin to the degree the pitches in bangladesh did, then i think its perfectly reasonable to expect more of them than we got

i'm not saying spin shouldn't play a part AC, i haven't at any point suggested that we shouldn't play any spinners, but when our "best" spinner is arguably not good enough for test cricket then shoe-horning the likes of ansari into the team just so we can do what the percentages say we should is imo even less "useful"