Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:37 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:I think a minimum is that catches should carry. But that wouldn't pass on some Indian pitches. In the series England won in India, there was no point having slips in Nagpur and Ahmedabad because the ball wouldn't carry. It's justifiable in that it asks different skills of the players (though a whole series of it would be monotonous) but it's bad in that it doesn't punish the batters' mistakes.

only nagpur was slow in that series, Ahmedabad wasn't slow well not slow for an indian standard pitch, was slow for what england were doing but not slow if you had spinners.

in India in pace terms you need the edges to the spinners carrying and also quick enough so the spinner take wickets through mistake.
Nagpur was turning the same amount as the other 3 but the wicket was so slow any decent batsman won't get out.
Ahmedabad looked quick when india were taking wicket, but slow enough when their were scoring runs or when Cook/Prior started scoring.
weirdly enough was probably the pitch india wanted in that seires in all the games, got carried away in Mumbai/Kolkata with the pace/bounce of the wicket.

India will never have pace quick enough for the seam bowlers to have loads of slips, possibly in Punjab and few grounds in the north and possibly Mumbai but lets be honest India will never produce a deck that quick for seam bowlers to have slips, but then the catching position in india are not the slips but mid off and mid ons, if anything the attacking fields Anderson sets are scary he literally won't concede runs and looks threatening with reverse swing.

But if you asking for pace in the indian wickets it should be noted Rank turners and 2-3 day results will be the norm, it is impossible to produce a deck in india with good pace and still have the game last 5 days, without it being a 500-500 game.

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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:39 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fair point. The last game would have moved forward with better catching, but I agree. Like the Abu Dhabi Test, the conclusion doesn't really justify what has gone before. Like the last five pages of a whodoneit, with everyone assembled in the library, won't necessarily justify the badly written formulaic crap that went before.


The main one for me is pitches that are so slow, bowlers kill themselves on it, and batsman cant time the ball to score quickly from them.... Im open to a range of pitches, but they have to conform to a certain pace ratio. You sometimes see tests where teams are getting about 300-350 in each innings, but over 150 odd overs... these are the pitches that are terrible.


Agree on this.

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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:46 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:I think a minimum is that catches should carry. But that wouldn't pass on some Indian pitches. In the series England won in India, there was no point having slips in Nagpur and Ahmedabad because the ball wouldn't carry. It's justifiable in that it asks different skills of the players (though a whole series of it would be monotonous) but it's bad in that it doesn't punish the batters' mistakes.


Well the pitch you mentioned in Nagpur is actually the one I was referencing with the point about scores just above 300 hundred taking nearly 2 days to amass. I remember watching Kohli and Dhoni bat for hours not going anywhere, even though both knew they needed to set a score and bowl England out not to lose the series. The pitch was utterly terrible, a pitch you would back most teams could block out a whole 5 days on should they not worry about getting runs.

I would not hesitate to say that was the worst test match pitch I ever witnessed. Or certainly remember... even Sabina Park 1997 gave me 3 overs of entertainment, even though England were 9/3 and there was serious concerns that someone would be killed.


even though it was a *modded* pitch, in the term of the series it was quite funny and didn't really mind it because it generated a story in this series if it was a norm it would be terrible as an one off in the series it wasn't that bad.

Ahmedabad India probably produced the best deck their wanted.
Mumbai Wanted more pace/bounce so their can thrash England 4-0 (backfired since it brought Panesar/Swann into it and Anderson had more helps in it.
Kolkata essentially the same thing as Mumbai.
Nagpur Talk was of a rank turner with probably far less pace/bounce since their assumed it was the pace that made panesar deadly, in the end the pitch was so slow it didn't matter that india had 4 spinners in the team.

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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:56 pm

The Ahmedabad pitch was similar to the Trent Bridge pitch between the same sides. I'm not asking for pace and bounce and umbrella fields, but it wasn't even carrying to the keeper and first slip with a new ball. You can only bring your catchers in so far. But England went in with three seamers and left Monty out. Perhaps Flower's worst decision.
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:02 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:The Ahmedabad pitch was similar to the Trent Bridge pitch between the same sides. I'm not asking for pace and bounce and umbrella fields, but it wasn't even carrying to the keeper and first slip with a new ball. You can only bring your catchers in so far. But England went in with three seamers and left Monty out. Perhaps Flower's worst decision.

Sorry Arthur this is india the ball isn't really meant to carry much, If england went with the right attack, they would have asked more question of the batsman, since the ball was turning and had enough pace for the spinners to cause some issues to the batsman.
Even against SA in the recent series where the pace was actually quite good the ball barely carried to the keeper/slips.
it is india vast majority of the grounds won't carry to the pace bowlers.
Think only Mumbai, Banglorore, Punjab out of the test pitches would have good carry for the pace bowlers, the rest won't the soil just won't allow it.

That doesn't mean the pace bowlers can't take wickets, their just have to get the wickets while batsman are hitting drives or get them bowled/lbw.
Last edited by Dr Cricket on Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:03 pm

Compo should have left that. Makes no use of the reprieve. It felt like the pressure was easing as well.

Big wicket next, Taylor and Root.
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby KipperJohn » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:05 pm

SA finally catch Compton in the slips - about the 4th chance he's given there in two innings.
Hales and Cook both out in typical fashion.
Little evidence that England have really sorted their top order problems.
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby backfootpunch » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:05 pm

edges are actually carrying today

they were going straight into the ground for us yesterday
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby sussexpob » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:07 pm

backfootpunch wrote:edges are actually carrying today

they were going straight into the ground for us yesterday


Much more pace in the Saffer attack
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby mikesiva » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:09 pm

Rabada gets his second wicket....
Nobody has a stance quite like the mighty Shivnarine....

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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:09 pm

bhaveshgor wrote:Sorry Arthur this is india the ball isn't really meant to carry much, If england went with the right attack, they would have asked more question of the batsman, since the ball was turning and had enough pace for the spinners to cause some issues to the batsman.
Even against SA in the recent series where the pace was actually quite good the ball barely carried to the keeper/slips.
it is india vast majority of the grounds won't carry to the pace bowlers.
Think only Mumbai, Banglorore, Punjab out of the test pitches would have good carry for the pace bowlers, the rest won't the soil just won't allow it.


No apology necessary. As I said, I don't really want or expect a lot of carry, but that stood out among a lot of games I've seen in India. You don't normally see games where catchers behind the stumps are almost completely redundant. The Ahmedabad pitch on the 06 tour wasn't like that. Even in Asia, it was an extreme. But yes, Flower and Cook and Saker made a terrible tactical choice.
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby backfootpunch » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:13 pm

sussexpob wrote:
backfootpunch wrote:edges are actually carrying today

they were going straight into the ground for us yesterday


Much more pace in the Saffer attack

finn is the same pace as rabada and gets way more bounce but they still weren't carrying

pitch must have got significantly harder under the sun
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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby KipperJohn » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:13 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fair point. The last game would have moved forward with better catching, but I agree. Like the Abu Dhabi Test, the conclusion doesn't really justify what has gone before. Like the last five pages of a whodoneit, with everyone assembled in the library, won't necessarily justify the badly written formulaic crap that went before.


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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby KipperJohn » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:13 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fair point. The last game would have moved forward with better catching, but I agree. Like the Abu Dhabi Test, the conclusion doesn't really justify what has gone before. Like the last five pages of a whodoneit, with everyone assembled in the library, won't necessarily justify the badly written formulaic crap that went before.


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Re: Third Test. SA v England. Jo'burg, Jan 14-18

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:21 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
bhaveshgor wrote:Sorry Arthur this is india the ball isn't really meant to carry much, If england went with the right attack, they would have asked more question of the batsman, since the ball was turning and had enough pace for the spinners to cause some issues to the batsman.
Even against SA in the recent series where the pace was actually quite good the ball barely carried to the keeper/slips.
it is india vast majority of the grounds won't carry to the pace bowlers.
Think only Mumbai, Banglorore, Punjab out of the test pitches would have good carry for the pace bowlers, the rest won't the soil just won't allow it.


No apology necessary. As I said, I don't really want or expect a lot of carry, but that stood out among a lot of games I've seen in India. You don't normally see games where catchers behind the stumps are almost completely redundant. The Ahmedabad pitch on the 06 tour wasn't like that. Even in Asia, it was an extreme. But yes, Flower and Cook and Saker made a terrible tactical choice.


Always seen Ahmedabad being the slowest wicket in india, alongside Nagpur so didn't really surprise me.
By the way England didn't play a test in Ahmedabad in 2006 or 2008 but did in 2001 and it was very slow.
Generally Ahmedabad has been very slow, anyway the ground doesn't exist any more and it been abolished now and the new ground would have far more pace/bounce.
the newer Indian grounds have soils imported or have the harder soils found in India so the pace/bounce is good.

Just really wanted to make the point that if you increase pace/bounce in india you will increase the chances of 2-3 day result and Spinners going crazy in india with wickets.

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