Big Bash League 2014/15

[rich1uk]

just to add , and I am saying this as someone who thinks stokes has a load of potential, but the way steve harmison is raving about him in the studio and how he deserves to be batting at #3 or #4 for England , the guy has a list A career average of 28 , are we seriously saying he should be getting a top order spot in front of the likes of taylor or ballance who both average around 50 in list A ?

[Aidan11]

thing is watching that innings from stokes lessens the argument that is often made about his failures in ODIs recently has been because he is batting too low

coming in at 6/7/8 in an ODI usually requires playing exactly the sort of innings he just played there , so saying he needs to be batting at 3 or 4 in ODIs to allow him to build an innings doesn't really wash

He plays a different game though higher up the order. Plays himself in and then lets loose as the game goes on. In T20 he has to hit it from the start because of the lack of time available. Sometimes that will come off like today and other times it wont.

that's what I said tho, having to hit from the start is exactly what is required from a 6/7/8 in ODIs and people have made excuses for his failures to be able to do that in ODIs saying he is batting too low

if he can play that type of innings in t20s , and he has a lot of experience in t20 cricket, then I don't see why batting at 6/7/8 in an ODI side should be so alien to him as it has been made out

I think it's about scoreboard pressure though. If a team is 150/6 needing 8 an over when chasing or needing to up the rate when setting a total then the batsman at 8 feels the pressure. In a T20 there are only 20 overs max and there are no pre-conceived ideas of a good total - just knock it around, belt the odd loose ball. At least that's how I see T20 cricket and the reason why I don't embrace it.

[rich1uk]

not being funny but what you are basically saying there is he cant handle the pressure of having to do it in an ODI when the side needs it , so that's hardly a ringing endorsement

I would love to see a guy that can do what stokes can in our ODI side , but he just hasn't done it at that level and I really don't accept the argument that harmison was making that if you bat a guy at #8 he will bat like a #8, look at what Faulkner does coming in at #8 or #9 for Australia. if he has the talent he should be capable of showing it no matter where he bats and if he isn't able to do that because he is supposedly batting out of position then he only has himself to blame

[Aidan11]

The no 8 position is alien to him though.

It's effectively the tail and he is a middle order batsman.

England just seem to see him as a bowler who can add runs to the tail and he's never done that so it's no surprise he's failing.


Bat him at six - like England did in the third test at the WACA just over a year ago - and he can deliver.

[rich1uk]

The no 8 position is alien to him though.

It's effectively the tail and he is a middle order batsman.

England just seem to see him as a bowler who can add runs to the tail and he's never done that so it's no surprise he's failing.


Bat him at six - like England did in the third test at the WACA just over a year ago - and he can deliver.

sorry aidan but I just don't buy that argument

for someone that has the amount of experience in t20 cricket that he does, and is capable of playing the type of innings he did today then being asked to come in at #8 and score quick runs in an ODI should not be alien to him

on paper I would quite happily have him in the team in front of bopara, I think he has a much higher upside as a cricketer than bopara, but he hasn't earned that spot imo. he should be going out if asked to bat at #8 and trying to show people they are wrong , but in the games he played last year for England he looked like he didn't know which end of the bat to hold.

[Aidan11]

Well Paul Collingwood seems to agree with me according to his latest tweet -

If you bat @benstokes38 at number 8 he'll bat like a number 8. If you bat him at 3 he'll win you games.

[rich1uk]

Well Paul Collingwood seems to agree with me according to his latest tweet -

If you bat @benstokes38 at number 8 he'll bat like a number 8. If you bat him at 3 he'll win you games.

the durham mafia must be talking as that's almost word for word what harmison said in the studio

if he is good enough to bat at #3 we should be seeing that class and talent regardless of where he bats not the guy playing telephone numbers with his scores last year

if he is good enough and has the talent to bat at #3 he should show that even if he is batting at #8 , if he bats like a #8 just because that's where he is in the lineup then he doesn't deserve to bat at #3

[Dr Cricket]

Although I mostly agree with you rich.
Harmision just made a good point on Sky sports News that ECB are being hypocritical in making him bat at 8 but then not trusting him to bowl which has killed his confidence with bat and ball.
He far more talented to be a bits and pieces cricketer for England so don't really know why England are making him one by batting him at 8 but not really trusting him with the ball.

Especially more silly when Woakes, Jordan have also been picked so the tail was ridiculously strong to even think about having a batting all rounder at 8 and not really bowl him overs.
The only team set up to justify Stokes number 8 position was
Ali
Hales
Taylor
Root
Morgan
Bopara
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Anderson
Finn

Basically pick one spinner and 2.5 number 11 but then Woakes is a better bowler and a solid batsman so Stokes lose his place on that front.
Bopara got a far better record to get dropped for Stokes so he can bat at 7 or 6.

[Dr Cricket]

Oh and using his domestic performances is like people saying Ashwin should bat in the top 6 or even open for india because he averages 36 in Test Cricket and at one point it was higher than Dhoni, Kohli, Dhawan and possibly Vijay in Test cricket.

Stokes has never justified batting in the top 6 at best he justified a number 7 spot but then England/most fans are stubborn that Buttler has to bat at number 7.
In my opinion Number 6 and 7 are interchangeable in ODI so don't really know why Buttler can't bat at 6 but all rounders like Stokes, Woakes, Ali,Bopara can.

[GarlicJam]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the ECB selection panel and their processes (and long may they be argued over), it was a bloody fine innings by the Kiwi lad tonight. Matchwinning without a doubt. Streets ahead of his team-mates and the opposition.

Great viewing - even for someone wanting him to get out each ball.

[andy]

I think Harmison's point was that Stokes traditionally is a top order batsman, he isn't someone who comes in at 8 and slogs the ball round....he is a proper batsman, and hasnt really had the time to prove it...obviously he cant bat up the order at the moment, because others deserve their chance, but clearly Stokes is a proper and talented batsman

[Aidan11]

Bresnan's BBL debut appears toi have gone un-noticed today.

[Dr Cricket]

the same crap was mention in Test cricket when Stokes was batting at 8 in Test cricket at TB/lords.

What idiot thinks this is the best batting line up.
6. Ali
7. Stokes
8. Prior

I know prior was injured but assuming he was match fit and in normal form it would have been silly to have two inexperienced players at 6 and 7 with prior at 8 with a batting average 42.

You can argue in ODI cricket batting in 8 is hard to maintain a good average but in test cricket batting at 8 should never stop him from having a good average or hinder is batting apart from his ego which frankly is pathetic if true.
Since all it takes for the captain is to say that you are a front line bowler and we feel you need extra rest or you can redefine the number 8 position like Gilly and destroy teams by making england have 8 batsman and 5 bowlers in the team.

Also if Ali starts batting like he can + buttler and one of Stokes/Woakes playing england will always have one of them bat at 8 so england will always have to play one of them at 8.

Although agree that England could have used him far better this summer or at Sri lanka ODI.
Mostly it sounded like Cook had no idea what Stokes can do or what his role in the team was which was also mirrored in Stokes performances.
For me the killer must have been when he got dropped at the 3rd test match against india because of bad batting even though he was one of the best bowlers in the last test match.
At 8 he was mainly picked because of his bowling ability so he should have been judged on his bowling not his batting, either way it sent a wrong message to stokes which England still haven't fixed since he still bats at 8 but doesn't really bowl.

[GarlicJam]

Bresnan's BBL debut appears toi have gone un-noticed today.

Took a fine catch. Bowled decently. Batted like the rest of the team.

[Dr Cricket]

I think Harmison's point was that Stokes traditionally is a top order batsman, he isn't someone who comes in at 8 and slogs the ball round....he is a proper batsman, and hasnt really had the time to prove it...obviously he cant bat up the order at the moment, because others deserve their chance, but clearly Stokes is a proper and talented batsman

Yep Although I think Stokes needed a far better Coach/Captain to help him find his role for england especially since Stokes doesn't know what he doing for england that making his batting and bowling failing completely when he put on the england shirt.

Even Flintoff took 5 years to click as a batsman and 6 years for his bowling to click as well.

in Flintoff first 42 test he averaged 32 with the bat and 36 with the ball.
in Flintoff first 29 test he averaged 25 with the bat and 45 with the ball.

Stokes should have had more leeway with his all rounder stats especially if he used at 6 or 8.
If at 6 he should be treated as a batsman and bowling a bonus which it was in the Ashes and he succeed.
if at 8 he should be treated as a bowler and batting a bonus
only if he batting at 7 should his all round ability be scrutinised and most team use their keeper in that spot.
Really if he batting at 6 his batting should be his main job and if he playing at 8 his bowling should be his main job not sure it was right to drop him when he failed in the lesser job his role required.
just having a quick glance at Flintoff first 4-5 years he was mainly used at 7 with him being used at 6 only at india to play an extra spinner and few at 8 against south Africa.

Maybe Stokes needs the official all rounder spot in the team 7 to help him perform that his abilities suggest he can do although that would mean the keeper or Ali at 8.