There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

[englandmad666]

I suspect all the England players have become tired of Flower's influence, which is why everyone is struggling. Which is another reason why its a shame KP didn't get another go without him in charge.

The whole team meeting where prior apparently vented his frustration at the "school master/headteacher" or whatever eluded to that. These players are not machines, like the food choices they had on tour of australia! For goodness sake id want to be looking forward to a good KFC or a steak dinner after a long day batting or fielding not rabbit food! That damages morale and babys players! You have to have a degree of trust that a professional cricketer can reign himself in when required on his own not be treat like a boarding school student

[Arthur Crabtree]

Yes, there has to be a possibility that there will be an improvement based on the removal of a problematic influence. I would imagine there would be some room for Flower style micromanagement in the squad, but in its place. A 31 year old shouldn't feel stifled by it, but a young player should be aware of its benefits.

[sussexpob]

Yes, there has to be a possibility that there will be an improvement based on the removal of a problematic influence. I would imagine there would be some room for Flower style micromanagement in the squad, but in its place. A 31 year old shouldn't feel stifled by it, but a young player should be aware of its benefits.

Yet it seems that the more senior and established players are the onres that support Cook/Flower, or at least on the surface, while even some of the anti - KP press talking of the secret meeting after Melbourne have indicated that the younger or inexperienced members of the team were sympathetic with KP.

Lets make no bones about it now he has gone, Flower had an appalling record of developing younger players, or picking players and developing them full stop.

[KipperJohn]

Im ian bells biggest fan but i think whether or not and how long he continues will be down to the one questionable part of his game and that is his hunger. Bell quite rightly should be regarded as one of englands best middle order batsmen of the last 20 years. Some of his innings have been sensational and simply stunning but he really should be one of the best england players ever but often when set he finds ways and means to throw his wicket away. Now anybody can do that but bell is just to good a player for it to happen to on a regular basis his technique, temperamant and shot selection are on par with anybody. He should be finishing his career averaging 50+ and 30 odd tons but at times i think he has felt demotivated and lacked that sachin tendulkar like hunger to score more and more and more.

Thats just my opinion but i think bell may look back one day and wonder what if

Couldn't agree more. I've commented many times on his failure to cash in after decent starts - his conversion rates from 50 -100 aren't as good as they should be, both in Tests and ODIs and the number of 20s, 30s and 40s - well I can't be bothered to count them but they must be pretty high. 98 Tests and 6,700 runs sounds very good - but I reckon that's at least 1,000 runs short for a player of his ability. Harsh, but then it's a harsh sport in many ways.

Another very good player who could have been a great one - is it an English disease?

[englandmad666]

Well i think cook will regain his touch and be in that respect very anti english kipper as he will and should go on to 40 test tons from the position he has got himself in and with his mentality at the crease i expect a 300+ Score along the way for him. I dont know if it is an english thing or not but you get the sense at times that some of our batsmen lack application and willingness to go on even after making a ton... Far to many 110s,20s,30s etc not that we can complain but i always find 70s etc from bell and co extremley frustrating when in they should be scoring big

[Arthur Crabtree]

A ton for Root.

[Alviro Patterson]

Yes, there has to be a possibility that there will be an improvement based on the removal of a problematic influence. I would imagine there would be some room for Flower style micromanagement in the squad, but in its place. A 31 year old shouldn't feel stifled by it, but a young player should be aware of its benefits.

Yet it seems that the more senior and established players are the onres that support Cook/Flower, or at least on the surface, while even some of the anti - KP press talking of the secret meeting after Melbourne have indicated that the younger or inexperienced members of the team were sympathetic with KP.

Lets make no bones about it now he has gone, Flower had an appalling record of developing younger players, or picking players and developing them full stop.

Bit harsh is that, Flower is merely given what the selectors choose and some of their selections have been at least baffling.

Not all England players have suffered from Flowers reign. Bell, Broad, Swann, Bresnan, Anderson and Trott have improved as players during England's recent rise. Tredwell for the limited amount of games played has done a solid job. Joe Root is almost unrecognisable since first selected for England, particularly in the limited overs formats. Jos Buttler and Ben Stokes are ones to watch out for.

[m@tt]

Im ian bells biggest fan

Have you not met battingforbell?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Im ian bells biggest fan

Have you not met battingforbell?

Pretty much a lol there.

[englandmad666]

Im ian bells biggest fan

Have you not met battingforbell?

Pretty much a lol there.

just a figure of speech! We have crossed paths a few times lol

[D/L]

I suspect all the England players have become tired of Flower's influence, which is why everyone is struggling. Which is another reason why its a shame KP didn't get another go without him in charge.

Yet more conjecture based upon nothing. All the evidence (and Pietersen's admissions) would strongly suggest that he was by far the most corrosive influence in the England set-up.

[D/L]

The whole team meeting where prior apparently vented his frustration at the "school master/headteacher" or whatever eluded to that. These players are not machines, like the food choices they had on tour of australia! For goodness sake id want to be looking forward to a good KFC or a steak dinner after a long day batting or fielding not rabbit food! That damages morale and babys players! You have to have a degree of trust that a professional cricketer can reign himself in when required on his own not be treat like a boarding school student

It is amazing how many people can report upon various aspects of this meeting, apparently quite certain of what was said and in what context.

[D/L]

Yet it seems that the more senior and established players are the onres that support Cook/Flower, or at least on the surface, while even some of the anti - KP press talking of the secret meeting after Melbourne have indicated that the younger or inexperienced members of the team were sympathetic with KP.

Conjecture again, with "seems" and "indicated". If we stick only to what we know, it would seem strange for anyone around Pietersen to have sympathy for someone who may suddenly display appalling disloyalty to them.

Lets make no bones about it now he has gone, Flower had an appalling record of developing younger players, or picking players and developing them full stop.

No better, no worse, than many other England coaches insofar as they have much to do with the development of younger players.

[sussexpob]

Yes, there has to be a possibility that there will be an improvement based on the removal of a problematic influence. I would imagine there would be some room for Flower style micromanagement in the squad, but in its place. A 31 year old shouldn't feel stifled by it, but a young player should be aware of its benefits.

Yet it seems that the more senior and established players are the onres that support Cook/Flower, or at least on the surface, while even some of the anti - KP press talking of the secret meeting after Melbourne have indicated that the younger or inexperienced members of the team were sympathetic with KP.

Lets make no bones about it now he has gone, Flower had an appalling record of developing younger players, or picking players and developing them full stop.

Bit harsh is that, Flower is merely given what the selectors choose and some of their selections have been at least baffling.

Not all England players have suffered from Flowers reign. Bell, Broad, Swann, Bresnan, Anderson and Trott have improved as players during England's recent rise. Tredwell for the limited amount of games played has done a solid job. Joe Root is almost unrecognisable since first selected for England, particularly in the limited overs formats. Jos Buttler and Ben Stokes are ones to watch out for.

Broad was 22 when Flower took over and considered a prodigy. His average was 34 over his career before Flower turned up (played at a very early age), fraction over 28.3 now..... I dont think you can really say that a developing player that young improved because of the coach, more likely due to experience.

The same can be said of Jimmy Anderson, who has a career average of 30, under Flower 28.... but then he was capped first when he was twenty, and would naturally as a sportsman with increased experience expect to have played under Flower at his peak, and have played under other coaches nowhere near his best, as a bit of a test peak.

Consider the alternatives that Flower has picked himself, and Shehzad arguably isnt going to be a county bowler for much longer, Bresnan has just had the worst two years as an international and Finn is now bowling at cardboard cut outs. I dont think Swann's level can be compared, he hardly played under anyone else and was old enough for age not to factor.

Out of all the other bowlers he picked, Woakes and Kerrigan were picked then didnt even feature in the subsequent Ashes away squad (Woakes also has been poor in ODI's), Arshad Khan/Tredwell played on test, Rankin and Tremlett were picked over Onions for their bounce, but never played despite bouncy wickets, the latter being the best standout bowler in a while in the domestic game, but not even getting picked for the second XI.

[sussexpob]

Yet it seems that the more senior and established players are the onres that support Cook/Flower, or at least on the surface, while even some of the anti - KP press talking of the secret meeting after Melbourne have indicated that the younger or inexperienced members of the team were sympathetic with KP.

Conjecture again, with "seems" and "indicated". If we stick only to what we know, it would seem strange for anyone around Pietersen to have sympathy for someone who may suddenly display appalling disloyalty to them.

And its conjecture to say the opposite, D/L. Whats your point? I think this "forum for discussion" would be a bit boring if we simply listed facts!

Lets make no bones about it now he has gone, Flower had an appalling record of developing younger players, or picking players and developing them full stop.

No better, no worse, than many other England coaches insofar as they have much to do with the development of younger players.[/quote]


Flower held position in an era when the national team took on full responsibility for player development, as the county hardly see them, and the national academy take kids as soon as they show promise. So in essence, with all this back up, the very limited success of any of these youngsters coming through at 5-6 years is a failure for everyone involved, and not a small one.