Spot Fixing?

[backfootpunch]

personally i think there needs to be a zero tolerance policy, if players think they can fix games and then come back and play a couple of years later where is the deterence, unless there is evidence of extenuating circumstances then they should never be allowed to play professional cricket again. i have no problem with them playing as amateurs for a club side somewhere, but they should never be able to treat cricket as a job again, they gave up that right when they decided to spot fix

[Arthur Crabtree]

personally i think there needs to be a zero tolerance policy

It's a tight line. I'd like to be, by instinct, in agreement with Sussex. because it is right to allow people another chance. So I don't want to be a b******. But on the other hand, you can't be a patsy either. If someone acts so cynically, out of self interest, and at the expense of what Butt/etc claim to love, then is it right to just say ok, have another go at it. I don't mind so much that they made fools of us all. But, once caught, they didn't behave with a lot of integrity either.

And I'm not sure contesting the ban shows a lot of contrition either.

Amir is not contesting the suspension. I take on board what his defenders say about his case. The PCB has reason to answer for their behaviour as well.

[SaintPowelly]

NO-ONE caught fixing, should have the opportunity to make money from the sport again, I don't care if we are talking about bowling 1 wide in a test match or fixing an entire world cup, CHEATING is CHEATING.

[meninblue]

If Amir ever plays again, I will quit watching cricket, its a disgrace.

They are really shameless. Even if one of our clubmate was caught fixing in a club match , he would feel so shameful that he would never even come for nets in front of us. The coach wont even need to drop him or get lost. But these 3 shameless creatures fixed an international match/series/cup (who knows) and still have all the guts to show the world as if they have done good deeds.

Couldnt disagree more.

The bloke was clearly an immature teenager thrust into sudden fame from tribal origins, who placed his trust in someone that didnt deserve it, probably because he was desperate to knit a close relationship with an influential player in the team or because he felt alienated because of his age and background.

It was a bad mistake, but I dont really want to live in a world where something so trivial as giving away two no balls can cost possible the most promising bowler in recent times his entire career.

In all walks of life we should be able to give people so young who have made mistakes the opportunity of redemption.

I would also agree to disagree. Talent should not be considered for determining whether a cricketer is a criminal or not. Whether his deeds fit into law or not should determine it. That is how the law stands now. Just because he is talented and would have carried his bowling form over 15 years should not exempt him from the crime committed. By that logic greats like Don Bradman, Sachin , Murali, Warne, McGrath , Akram should be allowed to fix few matches , if Amir's talent allows him to fix two no balls?

It is not a case of two no balls. It is a case of two fixed no balls. Fixing is a crime in cricket and every cricketer knows it when they sign the contract about fixing clause etc.

[sussexpob]

personally i think there needs to be a zero tolerance policy, if players think they can fix games and then come back and play a couple of years later where is the deterence

Such an attitude to charging guilty persons is not meant to deter, it is meant to punish. The nature of the crime and the reason it was commited is attributed down to pure economics... Pakistani players are poorly paid international cricketers in comparison to their peers and had no opportunity to supplement their wage in IPL cricket at the time. So when offered three years wage to "fix" the game and bowl two no balls, obviously three players in a team of 11 were compelled to accept such an offer, such was the tempting nature of the financial gains.

Key to note, before T20 cricket and IPL, India had more players fixing games(in fact, figures still show that more Indians have commited the crime than anywhere). The IPL stopped that because players can earn money without resorting to illegal measures. The only deterent is to make sure that players earn enough not to take the risk.

Another point you can make is, with offences of this nature, reoffending rates are a fraction of a percent. People who do this and get caught dont do it again, its a simple as that.... the deterent is in the punishment, and it works!! He has been punished enough.

Talent should not be considered for determining whether a cricketer is a criminal or not. Whether his deeds fit into law or not should determine it. That is how the law stands now

He went to prison, lost his job for 5 years and paid his gains from his crime back to the court.... he has paid for his crime!! I idea that he has been let off easy is ridiculous. His crime cost him money, his job for a long time, his integrity and reputation, his personal status and his personal freedom.

That is punishment enough.

NO-ONE caught fixing, should have the opportunity to make money from the sport again, I don't care if we are talking about bowling 1 wide in a test match or fixing an entire world cup, CHEATING is CHEATING.

I wont convince you because you seem to treat everything in black and white. As I said before, the world is a sad place if their is no second chance for such a young player to have the opportunity for a scond chance.

You say that you dont care...old enough to play, old enough to pay the consequences..... well that approach will never sort the problem out. You cant ignore the circumstances and causes of why such a brilliant prospect has done this.

The fact is, a young guy with the pressure and expectation of a nation was earning less than me and had arguably no opportunity to get paid as much as far inferior players of other nations.... and surround by a poisionous atmosphere in a dressing room that has, due to external factors largely, lost some of its integrity and cant even play at home in front of their own fans, he put his trust in an experienced captain of his side as a result made a bad mistake.

[meninblue]

Talent should not be considered for determining whether a cricketer is a criminal or not. Whether his deeds fit into law or not should determine it. That is how the law stands now

He went to prison, lost his job for 5 years and paid his gains from his crime back to the court.... he has paid for his crime!! I idea that he has been let off easy is ridiculous. His crime cost him money, his job for a long time, his integrity and reputation, his personal status and his personal freedom.

That is punishment enough.

But talent has nothing to do with his comeback, the way he conducts while doing duty for his country matters. He has spoiled Pakistans name in cricketing world. His team mates/captains would not mind a less talented cricketer but giving 100% rather than having a more talented cricketer and giving 100% towards other teams win.

[rich1uk]

adi i dont think sussex is saying he should get away with it because of his talent

hes saying that an 18 year old guy made a mistake, probably after being pressured by his captain and senior bowler into doing so, and that should be taken into account

hes just adding that it would be disappointing to see a talent like his wasted because of a mistake he made as a relatively young man

not sure whether i 100% agree with that view but i do see where hes coming from

[sussexpob]

hes saying that an 18 year old guy made a mistake, probably after being pressured by his captain and senior bowler into doing so, and that should be taken into account hes just adding that it would be disappointing to see a talent like his wasted because of a mistake he made as a relatively young man

Just look at the dressing room in the time before Amir got picked and up until the tour of England.

In 2007 they lost their best batsman and captain in Inzamam Ul Haq and their coach died in suspicous circumstances, to be replaced by Shahid Afridi and Younus Khan in ODI/Tests respectively. Khan didnt want the job, and it was widely reported that a divide over religion existed in the camp.

Afridi would subsequently be banned for ball tampering, for attacking a fan in the stand and for trying to damage pitches.... Khan, who managed to lead the team to T20 glory with Amir coming into the team then, had the false dawn destroyed when the Sri Lanka team were attacked and Pakistan no longer could host matches a few months after.

In this period post 2009 to early 2010 the team would be ripped apart. Younus Khan resigned after allegations of match fixing and the Pakistani parliamentary investigation threw suspicion on the team. In the mess that followed Mohammed Yousuf took over only for Pakistani's tour to New Zealand to end with the sacking of Yousuf, 7 major players (including the most experienced) being banned for a year over their conduct in the dressing room, and a complete melt down of communication between board and captain and players.

For an 18 year old seeing this player upheavel and the destruction of influence from players who seemed to care and stand up to the board, it would be understandable that such a young lad would struggle to not only fit into the setup and make friends, but also struggle to find a person to look up to and learn from.

Its key to note here also that his fellow bowlers in the team were not free from problems. Shoiab Malik and Naved were two bowlers banned by the board for their conduct while the former was cited for a dodgy action, as was his spin partner Akmal... the pace attack of Asif and Akhtar were battling back from bans to do with drug taking and Akhtar had a notable falling out with ODI captain Afridi... Asif was also caught going through Dubai with Opium and locked up for three weeks in jail. So this young lad couldnt look anywhere for a person to confide in.... everywhere he turned the experienced guys in the team were causing problems and destroying the team.

So what happens? He places his faith in the new and untarnished captain, who turns out to be possibly the worst person to turn to, but what choice does he have? He had recently forged a bowling partnership with some success with Asif and may have formed a personal bond on that.

To underline it all, his mentor from the very beginning, a certain Wasim Akram the person who found him originally, is a player who a high court justice of Pakistan concluded was only not life time banned because the main person giving evidence against him changed his statement at the last minute leaving Mr Qayyum to conclude that he thought he was guilty but he couldnt prove it, and recommended he never play cricket again for Pakistan.

Everywhere you turn you think he is a young and impressionable country boy being opened up to all kinds of influences and pressures, and in a desperate attempt for acceptance he did something stupid.

I dont think you can ignore the dressing room problems when assessing his crime because it just wasnt a normal environment for a professional team to play in. And for a person who hadnt even played First class cricketing coming into the situation and knowing no better, he learnt from his peers and that was a BAD lesson he was learning.

Thats were the talent is so depressing and upsetting.... had he been brought into the Australia dressing room at 18 he would retire at 35 as an all time legend.

[meninblue]

Seems i misunderstood some points. Okay, let us consider that a junior was influenced by seniors and that Pakistan cricket setup has never been an ideal environment. Let us also assume that gangs (the ones who work with bookies in Asia) pressurized the seniors and even they were under threat to follow them otherwise face dire consequences in person or threat to family. In that case why they are not revealing the names of gangsters who forced them. Okay, the threat looms if the reveal anything. In such a case there is no point in playing in future, because they will exert pressure again.

I think some Pak keeper (Zulfiqar?) ran away to UK as he thought it was safer place and expose few things. But the PAK government who also takes help from the most wanted gangsters involved in match fixing, for their anti India activities, forced the government to block his family members visa and the helpless keeper had no option but to go back to Pakistan and now has to remains quiet. At least keeper did not make his hands dirty, even though he failed to expose the scandal. It is very complicated but if the three players under threat could think and plan well, a better solution for malice in world cricket could have been found.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Obviously he committed a crime, and an offence against his sport that threatened the livelihood of those that draw a living from it. There is some context, as there always is. Everyone deserves some attempt to understand what they have done. But there still has to be an appropriate punishment. Obviously there is a great variation in agreement of what that should be.

It's not that likely, I suspect, that Amir could play for Pakistan again. For practical reasons.

How would we all feel if it was us? Would we expect to play again?

It may be that Sussex draws an accurate picture of how Amir felt. But it may be that this is not the case at all. It just feels like a plausible scenario. But it implies that circumstances meant Amir was in some way deficient of making a moral decision. Is that true? Couldn't his upbringing, and religion, have aided his chances of doing the right thing?

Amir walked away from his sentence a free person. I don't think he should pay for his mistake with a lifetime of victimisation. I think though that any professional body judging someone who committed a crime while in his work would conclude that he should be excluded from the opportunity of making the same decision again.

[meninblue]

I hope these three don't play cricket again professionally We saw what has happened to Hansie, Woolmer, Zulfiqar. They have a problem of their own now to deal with and its much worse than the match fixing problem for them personally. Azhar managed the match fixing scandal well by not naming his players but it was the inquiry commission who disclosed them. If Azhar had opened his mouth then we had come to know many other Indian cricketers names involved in that, but not found guilt by inquiry commission. He kept quiet and is safe. A lesson that Amir,Asif and Salman would sadly have to follow what Azhar did to be safe. Once they have fixed a match they have to keep quiet or pay with their life if they disclose. The wise thing is don't make the first mistake.

[dan08]

I think some Pak keeper (Zulfiqar?) ran away to UK as he thought it was safer place and expose few things. But the PAK government who also takes help from the most wanted gangsters involved in match fixing, for their anti India activities, forced the government to block his family members visa and the helpless keeper had no option but to go back to Pakistan and now has to remains quiet. At least keeper did not make his hands dirty, even though he failed to expose the scandal. It is very complicated but if the three players under threat could think and plan well, a better solution for malice in world cricket could have been found.

It was Zulqarnain Haider.

[sussexpob]

It may be that Sussex draws an accurate picture of how Amir felt. But it may be that this is not the case at all.

Well it was accepted as material fact in the court case, hence Amir receiving the lowest sentence of the three of them. It is quite clear that Amir was not seeking to be part of it, rather coerced into it from two people of a higher influential standing in the dressing room, and in the case of Butt, certainly a player who's status in the team meant that he could be seen as a mentor to the young Amir.

There was certainly smoke before the fire and the fact that Amir hadnt played first class cricket in a professional dressing room leads me to speculate that the young and impressionable lad could have been easily persuaded to believe that it was common place or standard practice or at least could be persuaded easily to believe his actions didnt have the gravity or baring they subsequently would, especially when confronted with a bowler like Asif who was performing really well adding his weight into the mix.

It could be enough to throw his moral compass temporarily.

Amir walked away from his sentence a free person. I don't think he should pay for his mistake with a lifetime of victimisation. I think though that any professional body judging someone who committed a crime while in his work would conclude that he should be excluded from the opportunity of making the same decision again

Tbf I cant really argue with this conclusion, or adi or powelly's. At the end of the day I understand your conclusion, but I have mine based on my belief... its a polarised argument where, if I am completely honest, both results are ever going to be a 100% fix. I have my reservations about him playing myself, and should he play I would probably want him to fail, but I also believe a player should never had to pay such a cost for one mistake made under duress.... the law punishes people for crimes and a sport should respect that until it can be proved that the player has not learnt his lesson... ie, let him play but should it happen again then he has burnt his bridge.

Adi,

Azhar is different, he was captain and a star player of the team for many years.... he abused his influence and used it to corrupt others.

And as for Haider, I thought that he wanted to be granted asylum under an agreement he gave evidence on match fixing.... when no UK citizenship was given, he went back to Pakistan without breathing a word.

One could argue that, having seen his test career taken away after one game and the fact that Akmal was clearly the number one rated keeper, and also his OD career had started very badly, as a non contracted player about to be dropped he maybe took the opportunity for a ticket to England and county cricket to earn more money?

[meninblue]

I think some Pak keeper (Zulfiqar?) ran away to UK as he thought it was safer place and expose few things. But the PAK government who also takes help from the most wanted gangsters involved in match fixing, for their anti India activities, forced the government to block his family members visa and the helpless keeper had no option but to go back to Pakistan and now has to remains quiet. At least keeper did not make his hands dirty, even though he failed to expose the scandal. It is very complicated but if the three players under threat could think and plan well, a better solution for malice in world cricket could have been found.

It was Zulqarnain Haider.

Yes thanks, he's the one i am talking about.

[meninblue]

Azhar is different, he was captain and a star player of the team for many years.... he abused his influence and used it to corrupt others.

And as for Haider, I thought that he wanted to be granted asylum under an agreement he gave evidence on match fixing.... when no UK citizenship was given, he went back to Pakistan without breathing a word.

One could argue that, having seen his test career taken away after one game and the fact that Akmal was clearly the number one rated keeper, and also his OD career had started very badly, as a non contracted player about to be dropped he maybe took the opportunity for a ticket to England and county cricket to earn more money?

Haider wanted asylum and he also wanted his family members (wife + kids + parents) to move to your country. The problem was that the Pakistan govt. raised blocked his family members from exiting Pakistan. So he had no option but to go back to Pak to be with his family. This happened in matter of few days and Zulfi could not plan it well. if his family members were in UK before he reached there or some other safe country he would have been a whistle blower. The party on other hand were more wiser with their plans and used their influences to keep his mouth shut by using various means. Not allowing his family to exit Pak was the major trick they played and lot of things are thus hidden as far as match fixing is concerned.

Kamran was not/is such a undroppable keeper in test format. So there were hopes and in fact Sarfraz has already replaced Kamran in tests. Also, if asyllum was only a ploy to make more money why would he take the entire family (wife+kids+parents) there and increase the cost of living which defeats his whole purpose of monetary gains. That too in middle of the series.