India the Test Future?

[andy]

dhoni looks mentally jaded and a change of skipper would probably be good, but there is no one who wants it, or is good enough to have it...gambhir next in line, but he struggling for form, putting sehwag in charge wouldnt be good, dravid is too old, and will retire soon.

[OffStumpYorker]

dhoni looks mentally jaded and a change of skipper would probably be good, but there is no one who wants it, or is good enough to have it...gambhir next in line, but he struggling for form, putting sehwag in charge wouldnt be good, dravid is too old, and will retire soon.

Personally I think he just needs a damed good rest, a little like England did with Strauss in BD, it will atleast allow the selectors to look into a possible future captain as well as give Dhoni the break needs.

[andy]

yh i suppose that could be a good option....however if he's gonna rest, then he should skip the IPL! interantinal cricket is far more important

[meninblue]

I think it's the fans who want something or other to change. We need to understand that some series will be lost and some will be won. Batsman will make merry on some tours and will fail in other. Fans and media either want to drop Dravid, Gautam or VVS or give Dhoni the chop. Patience is the key. In England injuries were crucial in the loss. IMO for an Asian person who lives in warm climate, it becomes tougher to recover from injuries especially in English weather. I am not surprised Zaheer etc, could not recover on time on that tour and injuries were a major concern there for us.

However, in this Australian tour we almost have our top players fit. The performance should have come but the bounce is what our batsmen have failed to negotiate. I doubt other youngsters would have or can play better than Sachin, V V S or Laxman. They might do well but they cannot be world beaters as those three in a couple of days. This was not an tour to experiment.

Ponting and Hussey should have got axe if fans wishes were to be satisfied and Warner etc to replace them. We have seen that the Aussies runs have flown from the bats of seniors like Ponting, Clarke and Hussey. Warner, Cowan and Shaun have fared poorly. Warner, Shaun and Cowan have scored 145 runs in 8 innings. Whereas those to be dropped (Ponting and Hussey) have scored 495 runs in 6 innings. Luckily, the selectors did not bow to the media views and did not include two more inexperienced batsmen in the squad.

I reckon Dravid and V V S should be in next squad as well, even if they fail in this series. They will make up for the bad form soon. Having said that they should be rested alternatively or something like that to transition newcomers gradually. Panic and inexperience won't bring runs back. Proper planning is required to balance the issue of retirements.

[Red Devil]

think Ind should probably start to rebuild after the Aus tour back at home in Ind, so

India's next side for a home test will hopefully look something like ... Viru, Gambhir, Pujara, SRT, Kohli, Rohit, Dhoni, Ashwin, Zak, Umesh, Ojha/Jadeja

I'd be tempted to try Jadeja out as not very impressed by Ojha anyway. Jadeja seems to have really developed over the last year ( I was one of those that was desperate for him to be dropped about a year ago) and would certainly deepen the batting line-up and improve the fielding. I'd probably try to get Ishant / Aaron / PK / Irfan /Munaf to play some county cricket or something to give them a learning experience. PK would be the replacement if Zak was injured. Same with the likes of Rahane / Mukund / Pujara / Rohit. Maybe a couple of serious A tours to Eng / SA / Aus would help.

A few tests at home should mean they have a better chance of succeeding in away tours because they already feel at home in test cricket.

India's next side for a home ODI will hopefully look something like ... Viru, Parthiv, Kohli, Yuvraj, Rohit, Raina, Jadeja, Ashwin, PK, Umesh, Aaron / Munaf

I'd probably look to rest Umesh a bit and also try to get Irfan into the team as well on a rotation basis. Would rest Dhoni from home ODI's and SRT from all ODI's probably. Would also leave Gambhir out - would try to make sure Rahane plays a few knocks at the top of the order as well, either rest Viru, rotate the other players, or on a real turner where India won't need 3 seamers you could play him because there are plenty of spin options in the side.

Given that the next WC is in Aus, it is important that Ind start to prepare for that so in away ODI's I think Ind should be working towards a 4 man pace attack. The most likely seems to be Irfan, Aaron, PK and Umesh. There is some batting ability in there as well. They could stick with Zak for a bit to coach them through and rotate the other 3. Munaf is another option as well, especially if Zak and Umesh are bowling lots in tests. A 4 man pace attack would mean that we probably rotate Ashwin and Jadeja, and then rely on Yuvi and Kohli as the 6th bowler or even that we rely upon Kohli/Yuvi/Raina/Rohit/Viru to make up the 5th bowler.

[andy]

red-ojha was extremely impressive agianst windies....him and ashwin took similair amount of wickets, but ashwin got picked for australia because of his batting

however i like the fact that people are looking at jadeja for the test side

[meninblue]

Personally it is disappointing to see that most of media and fans are calling for V V S, Rahul and Sachin to be dropped. As have seen before on very same forum that Sachin , lara, Ponting, Hussey needs to be dropped and we have seen how the cricketers have comeback after a failure. Therefore, i am not shocked by reading all this, though i am disappointed. I am feel that V V S and Rahul are needed more in their career if not now. Team India is struggling overseas like we did before Saurav took over the captaincy. These three along with Saurav, Kumble and Zak showed India can win abroad. Rahul was in outstanding form in West Indies and England. Sachin has been doing good getting regular good scores but for the 100th 100. V V S has been good in patches but surely not one to be dropped. The good form and bad form are part of every cricketer throughout their career and fans are not wanting to give proven performers who have excelled in 90% of their career years, some series of failures. Will the likes of Kohli, Raina, Yuvi, Rohit, Pujara, Ajinkya, Abhinav etc will be able to survive the same performance expectations. Are we sure India would not get whitewashed if new look team is selected. The media will create another bubble to explode. By the trend they might get chopped after every tour abroad.

I would rather say, the big 3 play in next series as well, but rested alternately / gradually to give youngsters a chance to play and develop under their experience, patience and guile so as to pick a few of those qualities if they intend too. Transition plan is the call of the hour, not chopping.

Rahul Dravid should give up the slip position and field at Gully at the most if Dhoni needs him behind the stumps. If not gully, keep him at covers or mid off as he has always been a off side fielder. In a past year or two he has started to err on judging the line of the ball on of stump, which he once was a master at and hence played big innings. However, he can work at it as he has sound basic techniques and a determined character. It was not long back that the annointed world beaters of Indian cricket who are masters of ODI failed to even convince that they can abt well in ODI's (their strength) and Rahul had to make a comeback after two years since he was dropped from ODI for the tour of England. If these youngsters cannot convince to play in English conditions even for 50 overs then how are they going to last for test matches. I hope my point is understood in context rather than being taken as Rahul being a better ODI player overall. That exactly is the problem...the overseas test tours without Rahul or V V S.

As for V V S, he is the only reliable middle order player apart from Sachin. To drop him wil mean searching a No 5, when we are already struggling to search a Number 6 since Saurav retired years back. Follows Dhoni at 7 with a bad test series as batsman. It would not be wise to chop him

It will be interesting to see the selectors stance given the expectations of fans in general about a new look young test team who will be world beaters, media pressure which follows after every series defeat, captain Dhoni's strategy and the thoughts of think tank (includes Duncan, Sachin, Rahul, V V S, Zak ). The issues is not really as complicated as i made out to be. However, if we chop it will become worse because once the seniors are chopped, they will announce retirement as they have passed comeback age and their services won't be available if the so called new look world beaters fail on abroad tours. Then you have to replace failures amongst Kohli, Ajinkya, Pujara, Abhinav, Rohit, Raina and Yuvi.

As i write this i am watching India TV channel. The guy has a nice English degree to present news . He is spreading such wrong views about the "Team India" cricketers who have been the most successful at proper cricket. Can someone please give this English and Hindi speaking local blokes some proper cricketing knowledge by putting him a crash course of at least a month at some local nets or clubs. It will be interesting to see how he reacts and how much cricket he can play if his finger gets trapped even once between ground and ball, after getting a single hamstring, after being hurt on knees while fielding etc. If you don't know something practically, then it's okay. But please show some respect to those who have contributed immensely in their field of expertise, whichever it may be. Some past cricketers will jump on this failure as well, the selectors will use this opportunity to make scape goats and select replacement players from their zones. Nobody really cares about the big 3. Their present cricketing skills and past no longer seem to matter to the majority of fans after we have lost two series (England and Australia).

IMO the future of Indian cricket will depend a lot on Duncan and Dhoni. Duncan has a tough time, but this is the challenge he must relish along with Dhoni. Both of them can be successful or failures, given what strategies they decide and how they go on to manage the big 3 who are in twilight of their careers.

[alfie]

A lot of complaints about the poor performances of VVS , Dravid and , to a degree , SRT on this disastrous tour. But I'd suggest it was absolutely right to select them all for these matches , and the blame should first be directed at the very poor efforts of Sehwag and Gambhir. Opening partnerships are important everywhere , but very much so in Australia , and they haven't had one at all...Both will want to show much better form back home or the middle order won't be the only thing up for changing.

After 3-0 down , it is time to start the changing of the guard , and clearly VVS is first to go. One at a time though , as Kohli has only just started to show some form in this latest match , and bringing in Rohit gives them two new batsmen feeling their way ... as one or both establish themselves (hopefully!) another one can be brought in for Dravid perhaps. I suppose an alternative might be to play Rahane and move Dravid down the order?

On the matter of Dravid , I am surprised to see him struggle so much here , given his excellent form such a short time ago in England. Especially to see him bowled again today , this time by a basically straight ball...he looked awkward , feet wrong , playing across the line - just didn't look like Dravid at all. Perhaps when age catches up with even a great player , he can fall very fast ... or perhaps for whatever reason his mind is not clear at present. Either way , I suppose he might choose to call time himself , which would force the selectors hands. But if he chooses to play on I'd be for giving him the next (home) series to see what he does.

Although the bowling has been hammered at times I do see some hope for the future there - Yadav has shown promise , Ishant Sharma has been a bit better than his figures suggest , and if Zaheer is closer to his end now they can also look forward to the return of Praveen Kumar , and young Arun. Ashwin has been disappointing , but if he has the character his batting suggests he will surely learn from this tour , perhaps more when it is over and he can look back at what he has done wrong when bowling in Australia.

In the immediate future I think India might have to be content with being "tough to beat at home" and "better than the lesser Test teams". But did anyone think this wouldn't happen when several stars waned together? Happened to West Indies , happened to Australia ... how quickly they get back depends on how soon a few new players find their feet at the top level.

[OffStumpYorker]

Adi,

I agree that the phased replacement of the Big 3 needs to be a priority and a medium term goal (VVS probably shorter than Rahul).

It would also be good if the BCCI could start to try and place batsmen and bowlers in other countries, such that they play in the Lancs League, Minor counties, Counties, Grade Cricket (state teams are difficult to get into even for internationals) in Australia in order to get a feel for the conditions as this is really the only way to get youngsters used to different conditions abroad.

Anyone who expects a team with young players to become world beaters straight away is heading for a fall, it will take 3-4 iterations to get the right balance, and 2 series to get them up to the next level.

Some players will fail and fall by the way, but some will come good and start forming the basis.

I personally would be looking to rest Dhoni in the SL ODI series and give someone else the captaincy job for that series only just to see if they have what it takes.

[meninblue]

Adi,

I agree that the phased replacement of the Big 3 needs to be a priority and a medium term goal (VVS probably shorter than Rahul).

It would also be good if the BCCI could start to try and place batsmen and bowlers in other countries, such that they play in the Lancs League, Minor counties, Counties, Grade Cricket (state teams are difficult to get into even for internationals) in Australia in order to get a feel for the conditions as this is really the only way to get youngsters used to different conditions abroad.

Anyone who expects a team with young players to become world beaters straight away is heading for a fall, it will take 3-4 iterations to get the right balance, and 2 series to get them up to the next level.

Some players will fail and fall by the way, but some will come good and start forming the basis.

I personally would be looking to rest Dhoni in the SL ODI series and give someone else the captaincy job for that series only just to see if they have what it takes.

OSY, I like the idea of tour to Australia. I remember that a few of clubmates along with club cricketers of other clubs , formed a group, raised money themselves and toured Australia to play matches against Australian clubs on Australian grounds. Trust me, they were not even Ranji cricketers. See the dedication, strategy and realizing the importance of experiencing adverse conditions and wickets by club cricketers.That dedication and thought process by some of my clubmates and other club cricketers amazed me. All this was planned without any help from MCA (Mumbai Cricket Association).

BCCI later followed a somewhat similar plan. They sent few of Indian Ranji quicks to Australia to give them feel of Aussie wickets and experience of weather etc. MRF Academy (the pace academy at Bangalore with Lillee as coach) saw trainees like Zaheer, Balaji etc. Pathan has been getting bowling tips. His coach has worked on Pathan getting the wrist position nicely behind the ball, thereby getting more control, better chances of seaming the ball way he wants etc.

As far as our bowlers experiencing English conditions, i think not many have been selected by counties. Zak. Irfan, Murali Karthik, Piyush Chawla come to mind. Piyush and Murali were needed more by counties to resolve their spin weaknesses rather than Murali and Piyush being their for improving their bowling. Zak and irfan gathered huge experience there and Zak changed after his stint at county.

BCCI did play India A Versus Lions last year iirc. So the effors are there. However, such games should be organized in more numbers. It will be worthwile for some players to skip some games from Duleep trophy, Times Sheild etc and tour overseas.

I am not against a change, but a gradual change is what i wanna see. It has to be balanced, planned strategy. As you pointed some of the newcomers will fail and some will succeed. The lack of enough A tour matches to places like England, Australia will hurt India most at this stage when the seniors are bound to retire one by one. Players will welcome A tours as it will help them get better overseas. So i wonder what BCCI is waiting for. That is one aspect i feel BCCI has failed.

Dhoni needs a rest without any doubt. He has played in all formats. We must not forget he is the keeper and hence the fielder who fields more than anyone else in the squad. Plus batting and captaincy pressure. A wise team thinkthank and selectors would give him rest. IPL is a tournament which the Indian international players should rest in half games. Other ODI series or one or two ODI's in some series can be used as rest for M S D.

Amidst all this happening, a fan will think like a fan, media will think like media men waiting for opportunity stories to sell and a cricketer will think like a cricketer. I hope the cricketers and think tank continue thinking their way and not the way media wants them to think.

[greyblazer]

I haven't seen too many cricket fans say bad words about Indian legends but they can't play forever.

The problem India face now is as they haven't phased out these veterans one by one suddenly you can see a inexperienced middle order feeling the pressure as they will come into the side when India are losing.

In simple words Dravid should have at least retired after the series in SA, VVS after England and once SRT gets his 100 he too should be asked to retire. Now though these poor young players will play when the team is losing every match.

Also without giving a youngster a decent run how can anyone expect him to do well? On this forum itself I have seen people criticise youngsters after they have failed in their first or second innings in test cricket.

People kept saying that even Kohli should be dropped though in every innings he was showing promise and today he played arguably the best knock played by a Indian batsman in the entire series.

[OffStumpYorker]

Adi,

I few more A-tours would be helpful, I think england try and send the Lions on one overseas trip a year, theres also the Performance squad, which tends to be younger players.

I noticed that Dhoni is on an enforced rest from the Adelaide Test due to the second slow over rate in a year, and Saha picks up the gloves with Sehwag as Skipper.

I think we agree that the gradual change is required, and its a discussion between the board and he player concerned, so that it can be properly timelined, I'd love to see Dravid go into coaching and do what Gooch did become a batting coach as think he has a lot to offer, especially to new faces in the squad on thier first tour away.

A lot of the issues with the IPL can be sorted if they players werent expected to go to the after-match parties where the owners 'show off' thier team, or maybe they rotate it where they only do one in four, but thats something the players have to do and stand up to the owners by saying no.

[shankycricket]

So what Adi?They should play till they are 50?

I see that you have gone quiet on the Punter thread after Warner outscored the seniors by daylight on a green top pitch as opposed to Punter outscoring him on a flat pitch.Look,we all acknolwedge that Punter,Sachin,Dravid are greats,VVS and Huss are also fantastic batsmen.But they cant play forever.You seem to have developed an opinion that the youngsters arent good enough which is extremely silly given how little they have played.Yes,some of these shoes are too big to fill.But that doesnt mean the youngsters cant do a good job.The seniors cant play on forever.The likes of Khawaja,Warner,Maddinson,Kohli,Rahane,Rohit,Pujara are all talented players and if given time,I am sure they will come good although I dont expect them to be the next Sachin or Punter.But you seem to believe that the youngsters arent good enough and that the seniors should just keep getting picked.
You seem to say that anyone suggesting that one of the great players should be dropped is an idiot and doesnt know anything about cricket.That attitude of yours is just
You have got no respect for others' opinions.If someone is saying that Sachin,Dravid or VVS is rubbish then you have every right to react strongly but no one is saying that.Everyone just wants to phase out the big 3 from the team so that the team moves forward.

[shankycricket]

I haven't seen too many cricket fans say bad words about Indian legends but they can't play forever.

The problem India face now is as they haven't phased out these veterans one by one suddenly you can see a inexperienced middle order feeling the pressure as they will come into the side when India are losing.

In simple words Dravid should have at least retired after the series in SA, VVS after England and once SRT gets his 100 he too should be asked to retire. Now though these poor young players will play when the team is losing every match.

Also without giving a youngster a decent run how can anyone expect him to do well? On this forum itself I have seen people criticise youngsters after they have failed in their first or second innings in test cricket.

People kept saying that even Kohli should be dropped though in every innings he was showing promise and today he played arguably the best knock played by a Indian batsman in the entire series.

Spot on
A certain poster though feels that only seniors can play cricket.

[HarryPotter]

yh i suppose that could be a good option....however if he's gonna rest, then he should skip the IPL! interantinal cricket is far more important