Random Cricket Thread (International Cricket)

[Dr Cricket]

tbh that was to stop kolpacks flooding the county scene.
Since in theory Ab de villiers could actually play county cricket and play for SA at the same time surprise none of the top SA players didn't take Icc or Ecb to court can't see any reason why being a kolpacks stops you from playing international cricket especially in the winter.

Plus not exactly discrimination considering counties were free to have a team full of kolpacks but would just lose funding from the Ecb.

[Dr Cricket]

Wouldn't quota system just increase social and racial tension in the country and not reduce it.
Most of the policies SA government are doing is just increasing racial tension and social tension again it isn't surprising considering the more tension and racial tension there is in the country the more votes the government gets.

[Making_Splinters]

Of course it is discrimination, you are setting up a differentiated financial system where there are obvious rewards to pick players of a specific nationality over other players who are legally entitled to play. While it is no way directly equivalent of the quota system in South Africa, your willingness to quickly dismiss it further demonstrates, Sussex's excellent point that we are very attuned to what counts as discrimination based on the target group rather than the actual mechanisms at work. A point that I fully agree with and is found throughout the world.

It is obvious that positive discrimination is still discrimination, yet it is a very wide practice and one that is actively encouraged in many spheres. There is a simple reason for this, if you are going to turn back the effects of any system that has decisively weighted the playing field in one direction then you are at some level going to have to apply the same processes in the reverse. This is because any heavily weighted system after a certain point becomes a self fulfilling even when the initial stimulus is removed. To take a slightly less controversial example to illustrate this, we can think about why do most of the England side come from selective schools? It's pretty simple, these schools are ones that actually play cricket and have access to the facilities to coach and train students. This actually passes on through generations as parents who have played cricket are more likely to follow / play cricket as an adult and have children who will be interested in the sport and are equally more likely to have the same sort of education.

The same effect held true for a long time in top universities, students who went to selective schools were more likely to get better exam results and therefore qualify for places at Russell group universities over students who went to state schools. This has been started to be reversed by only though the application of positive discrimination by Universities towards state school students initially. Thankfully however this has been slowly replaced by work at grass roots to start preventing the situation from arising in the first place.

Now undoing the effects of nearly half a century of state led racial discrimination - odd when you don't just refer to it as something that happened 30 years ago it sounds a little more intimidating - is far harder because of the lasting socioeconomic effects it causes, and as noted above these are no where close to actually achieving any form of parity even three decades later. Now, personally I am not in favour of a quota system at international level because I don't actually think it has a large effect at the grass roots level which is where the problem starts, however it is part of what will be needed to undo the long term effects of apartheid whether it seems particularly palatable or not. The important thing is that unless far more work is done at the grass roots level, and indeed within the social system it will not have an effect, and that is what we are still waiting to see implemented properly.

Just a quick comment on your conspiracy theory, no, the ANC has just had its worse set of election results ever, and that was after this quota was announced.

[sussexpob]

As someone who has lived in South Africa at various points over the last 40 years, perhaps I have a slightly different take on this from those who have not.

While apartheid - I don't see why it is so difficult to actually write that rather than dancing round the issue - has ended and there's been 30 years of ANC rule, there still exists deep racial inequality in South Africa socioeconomically and this carries through to the players that have the opportunities to represent their country. So we're talking about something which still exists in many ways in current day RSA.

Most top cricketers - like in England - come from a selected group of schools an colleges, needless to say these are hardly the hot bed of diversity. The results of all of this are you end up with national teams that bring up very bad memories when they take the field and actually demonstrate the inequality that is in the system.

Like many instances where race is concerned, we have to avoid making the question of "why this occured" based solely on what occurs. Its undeniable in England that a huge proportion of players come from better education or public schools, but to say that this is because of a lack of diversity in the grassroots of the game would probably ignore the fact that cricket is not played or taken at all seriously in comprehensive schools, and that people like Joe Root will gravitate from these schools to specialist sports scholarships in order to get better coaching after being labelled as a prospect when young.

I played a very high level of junior rugby, and I absolutely cant stand this argument that rugby is classist, usually touted by people who havent stepped near a rugby club. Its similar with cricket. I wanted to play both, and after finding where I could do it, was selected on merit. Most of the people I played with were from private schools or better backgrounds, but I never felt once that mattered. A desire to play and be good enough, and if you find the right channels, you get a game. So more England crickters go to private school? So what!! How many kids in comprehensives play serious junior cricket? We did, and had to play private schools because no other local schools cared unless it was a round ball you could kick. Go to clubs, get games regardless of backgrounds. But dont tell me when no one turns up because they believe its classist that there are no people from comprehensive schools in the England team.

The same I believe is true of this situation. I have spent less time in South Africa, but I have been for 6 weeks, and I was shocked at how many people didnt care about cricket. White's seemed to care more about rugby, but a small proportion liked cricket. All the "coloured" people I spoke to would melt your ears about football, but rugby and cricket were alien sports they didnt care about at all.

I guess the point is, before we start saying there are not enough blacks coming into the South African team, rather than resort to the easiest conclusion and say in a post-apartheid SA, white elitism in sport still exists, we should be also asking whether or not black communities actually arrive at any level of numbers to grassroots levels of the game, do they play it, is there a passion for it? On my albeit very limited experience, the answer is a resounding no. It doesnt seem to be inbred in the mainstream black culture.

[sussexpob]

The ECB did something not to far away by paying Counties on the basis of the nationality of players they selected to play for them. That's discrimination is it not?

If you revisit my opinion on the matter, you will see that I was resoundingly scathing of such a policy on the grounds of it being discrimitory.

[Making_Splinters]

Well, there is a certain chicken and egg effect there Sussex. If you think that there aren't many Black players playing at the highest level, then the effect becomes that the sport is viewed as a White sport and why would we have an interest in it? That obviously reduces the number of players coming through the ranks and the whole thing becomes very cyclic. Maybe it is too late to now reverse this trend, but unless there are players playing at the top level who people can identify with we are unlikely to find out.

I was not saying that cricket in England is not diverse above by the way.

[Making_Splinters]

The ECB did something not to far away by paying Counties on the basis of the nationality of players they selected to play for them. That's discrimination is it not?

If you revisit my opinion on the matter, you will see that I was resoundingly scathing of such a policy on the grounds of it being discrimitory.

As noted in my longer post above, I thoroughly agree with you on positive discrimination as discrimination etc.

[sussexpob]

I was not saying that cricket in England is not diverse above by the way.

Indeed. I hadnt seen the second post while typing my reply. We seem to share similar opinions on why it occurs in England.

[sussexpob]

It is an argument that has so many social and economic factors, that it is hard to accurately predict the results of any action. I accept that forcing "coloureds" into the team ( I feel like I have to explain that I mean coloured in a SA context, and not in a Western old school ignorance way) may be good for the game in breaking down the barriers of it being a "white only" sport, and that will encourage more coloureds to play. That could, and probably should, be a result of such a policy.

On a wider level though, if South Africa wants to get away from this consistent definition of people on racial backgrounds then it has to embrace social programs that are by their nature and definition, open and based on meritocracy. The inconvienent truth in the counter (which you step on above) is that even without racism, the effects of apartheid have meant that a huge imbalance economically exists between South Africans of coloured and white origin. But the governments post-apartheid havent done anything to correct this, in fact I believe they have made it worse.

How to solve that problem? You are going to say positive discrimination, but imo I believe positive discrimination only serves to delay a true embracing of social justice and equality. The right corrective social attitudes is to state and affirm equality in all levels of state and society, and eventually those barriers get broken down. Simply forcing meriting whites out of the team only serves to motivate hatred and bad feeling in that ethnic group, and further distances the positive harminsation between groups.

If you want to make society more equal, put higher taxes on rich people, put the money into social problems. Find political solutions to bridge the gap between poverty and extreme wealth.... to me, SA's problems are more to do with inherent top level corruption and failed politicians who have served their own interest over the under class of society.

The shocking and worrying thing is, but introducing quotas, its almost like telling people the reason they cant make it in life is because of white people. Not because their government has failed terribly. Its racial scapegoating, which is usually the first step on the journey to horrible ethnic violence and consequences.

[Dr Cricket]

Good post both of you but end of the day SA government haven't given any good polices to improve it and having a quota won't see more black players playing cricket or even improve South African cricket.
It should be remembered that Csa favored positive discrimination at grass root levels and domestic cricket but wanted the best team to get selected for national squad which meant all the best players got picked and coloured players got picked on merit.
Was always going to take time for the result to yield.
What are South Africa going to do when Bavuma is found wanting or if rabada is injured pick 2 poor player because they are black.
What will they do when Amla or Tahir retire.

Is it any surprising SA are the only nation in the test world where so many players and coaches are leaving, hd Ackerman got a lot of stick for leaving South Africa to work and live in Australia.

[sussexpob]

Is it any surprising SA are the only nation in the test world where so many players and coaches are leaving, hd Ackerman got a lot of stick for leaving South Africa to work and live in Australia.

How much is this to do with the topic in discussion, and how much is it to with relative reward? Wages in SA are far lower than some other cricketing nations, Kolpak's could probably earn 15,000 GBP per year in South Africa, or get 4 months work in England for 3-4 times that.

[Dr Cricket]

Is it any surprising SA are the only nation in the test world where so many players and coaches are leaving, hd Ackerman got a lot of stick for leaving South Africa to work and live in Australia.

How much is this to do with the topic in discussion, and how much is it to with relative reward? Wages in SA are far lower than some other cricketing nations, Kolpak's could probably earn 15,000 GBP per year in South Africa, or get 4 months work in England for 3-4 times that.

Wouldn't the same not apply to West Indies players that can be kolpack although yes South Africa economies does play a part in them leaving.

But more people are using the kolpack ruling to play in England than West Indies players.

Think hd Ackerman had a good job and left and a good number leave SA since they feel talent been wasted on the bench.
Last year ram slam was more memorable for the talent left on the bench than the field, loads of good t20 players couldn't get a game.

So really money, future prospect all play a part in it.
http://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket/prot ... th-2044652

The quota probably makes the decision easier
Why live in SA where you earn less more dangerous and generally the country doesn't really want you there.
Not really much postives coming out of living in SA.
Taking sports out of it not really looking good for the country if loads of talent is being lost to other countries.

[Making_Splinters]

As noted above Bhave, you are trying to undo a prolonged period of extreme discrimination which has resulted in huge socioeconomic disparity which still exists even after 30 years of ANC government. The system is still set up in a way that favours to development of white players due to facilities, coaching and generational attitudes within communities, and the sanctions for failure to meet quota rules are insufficiently severe to really enforce a positive movement.

The fact of the matter is that without heavy positive discrimination at all levels, South African cricket is going to remain a largely white sport for years to come. This is a pattern that has been repeated in many sectors and countries across the world and as noted above it can only be reversed with a truly holistic discriminatory system that artificially changes the balance.

If CSA and the ANC - well for as long as they remain in power and the unthinkable is becoming decidedly possible of late - want to actually see change then they are going to have to stick with it long term and grin and bear it until the results come.

[Dr Cricket]

Thought what Csa were doing 3 yrs ago was the way to go get more black people in grass root level have some quota in domestic and age group cricket.
Should be noted Csa and government don't agree with the quata.
Csa are happy to be patient, it is the government that want results now and basically happy if South Africa lose all game if SA got 2 black players.

[Dr Cricket]

Should say the team that doesn't have 2 black players.
If the government were patient they would see that black players are coming through but would take time and luck for them to be international quality.
Literally if gov were patient for 12 month the quatas wouldn't exist since they would be happy with rabada and Bavuma.

Because the barring the crap and awful black international players SA didn't have a regular black international player since Ntini retired.

really wonder what SA are going to do without Babuma and Rabada considering the next black players are not even good enough to get into a squad of 20 let alone the starting 11.
only really phangiso is possible and not sure how he could get into the team can't bat or field and his bowling isn't really international standard and he will probably do nothing if he bowled in SA, England, Australia and NZ or the other option is to get a keeper that can not bat but then Quinton de kock is by far the best keeper batsman in SA.