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Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:28 am
by bigfluffylemon
For England's 500th overseas test, the BBC has been conducting a poll of England's greatest overseas win. Results are here:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/51104016

There is some recency bias there, no doubt (reading the exploits of Paynter in the bodyline makes it amazing to me that he only got 2%, but there aren't many left alive that would remember that series), but it's hard to argue with Melbourne 2010 as the winner. The perfect performance, largest margin of victory overseas since 1963 and largest in Australia since before WWI. And I get to brag and say I got to be there :D

It's easy in retrospect to say the sides were mismatched, but it didn't feel like it at the time necessarily. England went into that game at 1-1, having just been blown away by Mitch1 at Perth. They'd lost Broad, and despite dominating at Adelaide they'd been in a heck of a precarious situation at Brisbane before being rescued by an amazing second innings. So it was by no means a given that they were the better team at that point. It was a tremendous performance by the England side that between 2009-2012 were, if not the best in the world, right up there, and the strongest England side in my lifetime.

The top 5 were all great though. I actually voted Melbourne '82.

Thoughts?

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:38 am
by Gingerfinch
I would have voted for Karachi

2010 was an easy win but that Aussie team were not that good.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:51 pm
by sussexpob
Probably the Graeme Thorpe marathon effort at Colombo 2001 for me.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:56 pm
by Durhamfootman
Except Karachi always felt a bit suspect to me. Why play was allowed to continue in light as bad as that baffles me to this day. Phenomenal effort from Thorpe and a thoroughly exciting win...... but.... meh.... not sure

If I had voted it would have been for Mumbai 2012 and a rare and thoroughly unexpected series win in India

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:16 pm
by DiligentDefence
sussexpob wrote:Probably the Graeme Thorpe marathon effort at Colombo 2001 for me.

That would have been mine too.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:15 am
by alfie
An interesting topic. Bit of recency and Ashes bias but I guess that was always likely - could argue for others but that ten seem all well justified for the short list.

I reckon I am fairly qualified to opine on some of these having been in the stands for all the Melbourne Tests (except the Typhoon Tyson one - that was a bit early even for me)

Sort of depends on what you mean by "greatest" , no ? If it is principally "overwhelming " you are after , then 2010/11 wins at a canter. (Though Gatting's mob had a similarly easy win back in 86/87 - not on the list). When a team bowls Australia out , at home , for under 100 on day one and steams past without losing a wicket before close of play you would be hard pressed to find anything to top it. And that Australian team wasn't exactly bereft of decent players : Ponting , Clarke , Hussey ...reckons they'd all get a game today. Even had Steve Smith :)

But if you are after excitement it's hard to go past that Headley-inspired effort in 1998. (Yes I know 1982 was the closest finish : but honestly for most of that match I felt England were a shade on top and it wasn't until that extraordinary last wicket stand of Border and Thompson almost stole the result that it became nervy - very nervy !)
1998 though was up and down throughout and Australia definitely held the upper hand going into the last day...in fact they almost certainly thought it was in the bag when they cleaned up the England second innings despite some amusing tail end swipes from the generally incompetent Mullally annoying the hell out of Glen McGrath :) Must admit I didn't fancy England's chances of defending 160 even when a couple of early wickets went down. The third wicket stand really seemed to have the home side cruising in ...but of course nothing is certain in cricket and once it was broken (and it was a very fine catch by Ramprakash - one of his better acts in an England shirt ! ) and Headley got into his spell of a lifetime the boot was suddenly on the other foot...
With Steve Waugh still at the crease and a couple of wickets left the result was still logically in doubt : but somehow I (and a group of visiting English tourists sitting next to me ) sensed then that it was fated to go one way only ...and at the end of that incredible four hour final session Waugh made the mistake of allowing Darren Gough to have a go at the rabbits...end of story. Cue wild celebrations...only downside was that it wasn't one to bring back the Ashes so I can see why it was not going to be chosen. Still a magic day to be at the MCG :thumb

Karachi has to be high for excitement and an unexpected result : it was a nailed on draw for four days ! Footman queries why play was allowed to continue in very poor light - I am in no doubt it was because Mr Bucknor was so p....d off at Pakistan's stalling tactics he wanted to give any English batsman fool enough to face up in the dark every chance of finishing the match. OK even admitting bias I thought it was excellent umpiring ...the spirit of the law rather than the letter. Ironically I think if Pakistan had not gone so defensive even after taking early English wickets then England would have either backed off the chase or taken the light at first opportunity...

And certainly the victory in India must also rate really high on the list ...for its manner and its recent rarity ! So a fair enough choice by BBC voters for top three.

Greatest win - in the strict sense of the word - though has to be Melbourne 2010/11. Not often you are sat in the MCG on the last day with a bunch of England fans and not an Australian supporter in sight :)

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:27 am
by Arthur Crabtree
For me, Gooch's win in Jamaica in 1990.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:40 am
by sussexpob
England's bowlers broke open the Karachi game, and the amount of overs meant they could have lost 4-5 wickets thrashing it around and if disaster struck, only have to see out a few overs. The equation left Pakistan very little chance of victory regardless of how England chose to play; and England chose to be aggressive from the off, Atherton even went to play shots.

With the run rate up and contributions coming, I got the feeling that Pakistan became far more concerned with stalling then thinking about how they bowled. As their antics got worse, so did their bowling threat. In fact before hick got out they were even giving up runs on purpose to act like they couldn't see the ball. If they'd maintained discipline, they could arguably have stopped England. But as said above, bucknor was going to try as much as he could to.keep them out.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:14 am
by sussexpob
As for Melbourne, i think context is often forgotten when historic realities are disguised behind names. It's easy to say Australia had some tops names on paper, but Ponting was totally done, he'd not been a top level (or even a solid performer) since the end of his golden age in 2007. I think 2008 to the end he'd probably have averaged hick levels of run scoring. Husseys selection at Brisbane inflammed the Aussie press, he'd also had 2-3 real lean years averaging in the mid 30s by memory. If he'd failed at Brisbane, rather than made a 100 on a pitch that was a pancake, his career was over. Clarke was also I think in a prolonged period of bad form and bad fitness with his back, and it's only in 2012 Vs India when he broke out of that low period of his career and shelled them for unbelievable amount of runs that year.

Katich was dropped because Clarke didn't like him. Watson wasn't a test opener. Phil Hughes was on version ten of his career, Smith was there to bowl (which he did badly), hilfenhaus could barely complete his run up but the bowling was very short of options. Harris broke down every game, Johnson was in his long spell of self doubt and sprayed it all over.

Imo I expected to win this series, and as comfortably as we did. England were a class outfit, Australia were a side of some great cricketers all looking nowhere near their best, and some very average or bad ones thrown in to make the numbers.

So for me it's not impressive enough

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:21 am
by sussexpob
Id pick that Colombo test in 2001 because it was like a nightmare for england. Choose one man from history to bowl England out, it would be Murali. Chose one pitch to do it on, it would have been that one. Tailor made for destruction.

Jayasuriya, Sanga, Jaywardene, attapattu, De Silva, Dilshan, Vaas, Murali.....that's a damn fine line up to have to beat on their own pitches.

And that series just set the tone for what happened after. It seemed like a real moment for the direction of the team. Would we win in India 10 years after without having that result giving the side belief.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:30 am
by sussexpob
One that didn't make the shortlist either; the 2004-05 win at joburg. Smith, Gibbs, Kallis, ABDV, Boucher, Prince, Steyn, Pollock and Ntini....hell of a line up to beat in a marquee series away from home.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:19 pm
by Arthur Crabtree
sussexpob wrote:One that didn't make the shortlist either; the 2004-05 win at joburg. Smith, Gibbs, Kallis, ABDV, Boucher, Prince, Steyn, Pollock and Ntini....hell of a line up to beat in a marquee series away from home.


Good shout. That game gets forgotten about a bit.

I suspect a lot of candidates could be culled from the games outside living memory. Maybe they should have asked cricket historians than the public.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:26 pm
by Arthur Crabtree
sussexpob wrote:As for Melbourne, i think context is often forgotten when historic realities are disguised behind names.

So for me it's not impressive enough



Don't forget that Ashes win came between two 5-0 defeats. That was an impressive series by England and a strong team. Though yes, I'd have Colombo ahead of it. I doubt the Aussies have ever been beaten as comprehensively at home.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:58 pm
by sussexpob
Arthur Crabtree wrote:
sussexpob wrote:As for Melbourne, i think context is often forgotten when historic realities are disguised behind names.

So for me it's not impressive enough



Don't forget that Ashes win came between two 5-0 defeats. That was an impressive series by England and a strong team. Though yes, I'd have Colombo ahead of it. I doubt the Aussies have ever been beaten as comprehensively at home.


All three are examples of what happens when past its best teams are subjected to a very good one with a lot to prove. All those weakess can get exposed horribly.

As Hitler once said about Russia, all you need to do is kick the door in, and the whole rotten structure comes down.

Re: Greatest overseas win

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:04 pm
by Durhamfootman
sussexpob wrote:One that didn't make the shortlist either; the 2004-05 win at joburg. Smith, Gibbs, Kallis, ABDV, Boucher, Prince, Steyn, Pollock and Ntini....hell of a line up to beat in a marquee series away from home.

yes... that is a very good shout. Set up the ashes series nicely. Talksport did commentary on that SA series, I recall. Cleared their usual scheduling to make room for it