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Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:04 pm
by GarlicJam
Durhamfootman wrote:Were CA hoping that a 6 month contract would see him through to the world cup and make it easier to get rid of him if Australia didn't win that too, or were they hoping he'd turn it down so that they didn't have to sack a coach who'd just comprehensively won the ashes and delivered a global trophy within a few weeks of each other?
Very possibly. I understand that they made it clear (unusually so, given CA's recent history) to him, as well, that this was a transitional period.
"well, Langer seems to have been a devisive character all the way through his tenure despite it all coming together for Australia right at the end."
Fully agree.
Supposedly the players' biggest gripe about him was not his intensity, but his unpredictability - all lovey-dovey one day, fire and brimstone the next.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:42 am
by sussexpob
There are two issues in play here - was he the right man for the job, and regardless of that, was he treated with the respect a legend of Australian cricket should merit in the way this all went about.
In the latter case, its very easy - the way he has been treated is abysmal. He won an Ashes and a T20 world cup, and essentially got told he was fired, but because they had no reason or no real conviction about firing him, sort of game him 6 months so they could formulate an idea about what to do with him left in limbo. Accepting that deal would have been humiliating for Langer, and a person of his standing in Australian cricket should never have been treated with that disrespect. If you wanted rid, talk to him like a man and tell him.... dont string him on with this nonsense.
As for the former question, the answer is a lot harder. I have to admit, despite having a slight bias towards Langer (due to enjoying watching him bat for all those years) as a person he seems incredibly difficult to gauge. At points he seems flat out insane; like when Ricky Ponting says he nearly had to forfeit a test to South Africa a few years ago because with the team 8 down, Langer padded up after being sent to hospital after a sickening head blow that knocked him out, and despite the doctor telling him an immediate repeat blow was likely to kill or permanently disable him, would literally not hear a word about leaving the team a few runs short on a retired hurt.
Sometimes he is a devout catholic, other times he's writing about how to become zen and improve your life, other times he's a kung-fu master proclaiming why being small in height makes you better in a street fight, others he espouses the most middle of the road conservative gammon style politics. Sometimes he's dismissive....sometimes passive aggressive to the extreme...others just aggressive... then for dessert gives you a self help lecture about considering the lily.
In short, I dont think there is a man who comes across of less of an enigma that springs to mind. Being an enigma though doesnt mean he's a bad person, nor a bad coach. The fact that those who are in a position to speak about him openly (ie retired with nothing at stake) and have spent a lot of time with him, seem to have spoken warmly about him; and in cricketing terms, there are few people (if any) who's opinion matter more than Steve Waugh or Ricky Ponting.... both came out in full defence of him. That says a lot to me.
When you think of what Langer has had to face in a short amount of time - first, taking over a team that lost its two best batsman, its captain, and was probably at its lowest ebb in the history of Australian sport. And after he weathered that storm, then came Covid. Its a tough enough job in normal times on long tours, but bubbles, lockdowns and go knows what else just heighten tensions and are just much more difficult. I wonder if any teams could go through all this for 2 years and not have problems with members of squads, or with coach's struggling to maintain relationships with players in such conditions. I think when you look at performances, you have to keep that in mind.
As for those performances - losing to BD. Back to back losses to India at home.... balanced with T20 WC and an Ashes landslide (as well as the best away Ashes result since 2001 for OZ). Its mixed to say the least, but the trend is up, and the team just feels like its come a long way. Right now, especially in tests, they look a pretty good unit.
In the end I personally think he should be given more time. The failures need to be more acute, and he needs to get a shot to see what he can do in normal times, without another scandal, without covid's impact.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:52 am
by sussexpob
Having said all that, I listened to an interesting podcast from American Sports in the last week, and they had an interesting discussion about how the nature of coaching in sports has shifted in recent times, and that old fashioned coaches that demand strictness and maintain personal distance from their players are the thing of a bygone era, and that players simply do not respond to that style of coach nowadays.
They posited that modern day players get more criticism external from the team nowadays, with media and social media scrutiny, so the coach needs to be the shoulder to cry on more than the guy who reads the riot act. And with players earning more and more, how much crap they are willing to put up with, whether justifiable or not, reduces year on year.
Langer certainly fits into that mould. Maybe has old fashioned sort of personality, and his tendency to be in your face and demanding is exactly the sort of thing that gets under the skin of overpaid, over-sensitive sports people of 2022.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:33 am
by bigfluffylemon
sussexpob wrote:In the end I personally think he should be given more time. The failures need to be more acute, and he needs to get a shot to see what he can do in normal times, without another scandal, without covid's impact.
I agree. Considering he came in with the papergate scandal, the results he's achieved in difficult circumstances have been excellent.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:37 am
by bigfluffylemon
sussexpob wrote:Having said all that, I listened to an interesting podcast from American Sports in the last week, and they had an interesting discussion about how the nature of coaching in sports has shifted in recent times, and that old fashioned coaches that demand strictness and maintain personal distance from their players are the thing of a bygone era, and that players simply do not respond to that style of coach nowadays.
They posited that modern day players get more criticism external from the team nowadays, with media and social media scrutiny, so the coach needs to be the shoulder to cry on more than the guy who reads the riot act. And with players earning more and more, how much crap they are willing to put up with, whether justifiable or not, reduces year on year.
Langer certainly fits into that mould. Maybe has old fashioned sort of personality, and his tendency to be in your face and demanding is exactly the sort of thing that gets under the skin of overpaid, over-sensitive sports people of 2022.
Well, isn't that just the way. You could see the result of 'player power' with all that has gone on with England over the last 18 months. Threatening to cancel a tour because their wives couldn't come, rotation policies that achieved nothing - they all just want to be pampered, and they know that several of them could just say they're going to the IPL.
Then we get results like we have been. Is anyone surprised that if players aren't pushed hard in elite sport, they don't perform well? You don't see this kind of cr@p with olympic champions, some of whom put up with ridiculous workloads while getting paid nothing, just for the privilege of competing.
Apparently representing your country at the highest level isn't a privilege any more.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:21 am
by GarlicJam
bigfluffylemon wrote:sussexpob wrote:In the end I personally think he should be given more time. The failures need to be more acute, and he needs to get a shot to see what he can do in normal times, without another scandal, without covid's impact.
I agree. Considering he came in with the papergate scandal, the results he's achieved in difficult circumstances have been excellent.
Just as with Tim Paine, the Australian cricket loving public, as well as bloody CA, owe Langer a massive thankyou*, verbally/digitally yes, but possibly in the way
of some memorial, like a ground, award, etc. being named after each of them. I think they both should be honoured in at least this fashion.
As you say, Sussex, they each took over the reigns at a point that was definitely the lowest ebb for Australian Cricket, and possibly all Aus sport.
*which, I must admit CA CEO did do. (Collier? Some faceless man), in his statement to the media and presser, on Saturday, maybe 2 hours after Langer's announcement. Most wholesomely and repeatedly. It sounded heartfelt, and I am sure that it was genuine. But the damage had been long done.
and then he followed it up with the corporate-ese bullsh!t...
Good post Sussex.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:25 pm
by sussexpob
bigfluffylemon wrote:Then we get results like we have been. Is anyone surprised that if players aren't pushed hard in elite sport, they don't perform well?
The point is more that a four letter tirade and a lot of ill tempered feelings are by in large counter intuitive in the modern day, and that you can motivate and encourage a player to work harder or concentrate more by having a quite beer and a friendly chat most of the time. And that old fashioned coaches nowadays in general tend to create problems with maintaining aggressive or hostile environments.
I am loathe to compare "soft" players now to "hard" ex-players, because lets face it; professionalism and what it takes to make it nowadays in terms of work and dedication is miles away from what it used to be. So players even from the 90s saying players nowadays are pampered might also reflect on the fact they didnt have to follow diet regimes, probably had never been in a gym, and played 25% less top level cricket to now. I'd like to see how some of these chiseled rambo like tough guys from the past would stand up to the banal criticism of modern day cricketers - In the past you drunk 42 beers on a flight and became a folk hero - nowadays you go for a beer and light up a cigarette in the wrong area of a terrace, and people demand you are sacked.
The culture is what it is. Players get paid a lot more (and they should be paid more if the game makes more) and demand more autonomy, but thats natural. In the end for that extra money we demand so much more; players need to be media savvy, incredibly fit, powerful... etc etc.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:33 pm
by sussexpob
Again though, its really hard. I dont honestly know where I stand on it. Its very easy for players who's position is unquestioned in a team to throw coaches under the bus, because they are usually the first person who carries the can for bad performance. Its easy for Finch and Cummins to pass the blame on to Langer.
And some of the examples of Langer's conduct that has been brought to question seems justified; I seen for instance one journo who worked for the team giving examples of him losing his temper unnecessarily, but I think he was justified. One was demanding players werent miked up in matches as it ruined their concentration (a specific example where Maxwell was on mike had angered him, because Maxwell was chatting away to the TV then dropped a simple catch seconds later - Maxwell apparently agreed with the decision). And then another where Langer had lost his marbles because he was having a net warm up before a game infront of the big screen at Adelaide, and the stadium was showing replays of the opposition bowlers bowling wonder balls to remove batters, and Langer felt it wasnt exactly great preparation for his batters to be watching their opponents tear people apart. Which again, feels pretty justified and actually displays an attention to detail that is impressive. It doesnt say much when people speak out about his methods, but then when forced to give examples, the examples are pretty lame.
Obviously as well, people like Khawaja highlighting him being hostile at a time his own attitude was being questioned... well can you take that without a large pinch of salt? In fairness to Khawaja went from a bunny v spin to that monster innings vs Pakistan to save a game in what previously was a nightmare scenario for him, so whatever Langer was doing with him worked. Maybe rather than dwell on how he got there, the result speaks for itself about the method.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:35 am
by alfie
I must confess am a bit torn over the Langer business...
On the one hand , it seems that a coach who has just presided over a t20 WC win and a smashing Ashes success has been rather summarily dismissed - and the derisory offer of a six month contract if anything makes his removal even more disrespectful. And the feeling that he has been a victim of "player power" does not sit well with many old time Aussie players. My own brother is quite incensed about that aspect and says Cummins in particular has gone seriously down in his estimation. It certainly seems an unfortunate way for a largely successful coach - who took over in very difficult circumstances - to exit the stage.
But there is the other side of the matter. Four years is a reasonably long run for a coach. Eight might be stretching it - and Langer apparently wanted that. Plus I do not think anyone would deny that Langer was ... "volatile" to say the least. I suspect most players (even modern coddled entitled gen whatever ones
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
) would accept the occasional spray ; but it seems Langer's moods were at times just a bit much. Not being in the dressing room I can't say ; but there have been a fair few stories...
Perhaps reasonable to think that four more years might be a bit much for the team to operate in a (highly charged ?) environment ? Not that Test Cricket isn't pretty charged at any time ! But it may be that there was no "good" way to deal with this - even if the management could have handled it better than they did.
Pressure might be on the players - especially the current leaders - to show that they have not harmed the team by failing to stand up for their boss , perhaps ?
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:22 am
by sussexpob
As already stated Alfie, I do see both sides of the argument, even if I fade towards thinking Langer deserved more time for the reasons given.
Sometimes you maybe do have to look at how sustainable results are, despite successes. I use Andy Flower as a great yardstick for that; even when times were at their best for England, I got shelled on these boards for suggesting cracks were appearing, and that a fall looked on the horizon. You just got the feeling the team were being flogged, the talent coming through was drying up, and many players form had started to turn the wrong way. And we know how that ended ....
There are hints of that in this case. A few batters particularly in the baggy green seem to be ending stellar periods of form and are on their way down.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:47 am
by alfie
Yeah : I think we are broadly in agreement on this one , Sussex - even if it is agreement to be largely indecisive
Question : what would you think of England looking to hire him ? (You may have commented on this elsewhere , haven't seen it )
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:27 pm
by sussexpob
alfie wrote:Yeah : I think we are broadly in agreement on this one , Sussex - even if it is agreement to be largely indecisive
Question : what would you think of England looking to hire him ? (You may have commented on this elsewhere , haven't seen it )
I think England hiring the last Australia coach is a bad look for the ECB, but maybe he could do a good job. Players like Head and Khawaja came back into the team and better (and as stated, under Langer Khawaja also notably had good series vs spin when he was hopeless against it before)... Marnus came out of nowhere. So Langer at least has batsman under him who have improved or defied expectations.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:40 pm
by Durhamfootman
Oh crumbs.... Pucovski... again
concussion in his come back match after a blow to the head in warm ups.... that's his 11th concussion diagnosis
devastating for him, but he surely has to give it up, doesn't he?
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:25 pm
by sussexpob
Fingers crossed for Rod Marsh. Said to be in a serious condition after suffering a heart attack.
Re: Australian Cricket Thread
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Posted:
Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:39 pm
by Durhamfootman
any word on Rod Marsh yet?
Seemingly the 2 men who drove him to hospital instead of waiting for an ambulance are being credited with saving his life