English Cricket Thread

[sussexpob]

The problem is, making this a long v short term argument in itself only works based on a very faulty assumption that Woakes and Wood have longer futures than Broad/Anderson. Such an assumption is to remove all context from the argument and simply take the relative ages of those involved into account alone. Wood and Woakes are not young, they are both now 32... how likely is it that both of these are still playing international level cricket in even 2 years time, let alone the fact both are trundling down under for the Ashes at 36 in 4 years time?

Wood is a bowler that relies on high pace levels. He's passed his physical peak and its absolutely inevitable his pace will fade now; and lets be honest, even at his physical zenith, he was fit enough to play 25 tests in 7 years, and is about as reliable as a Lada car. Even if he had been the absolute picture of physical fitness, bowling quick like he does takes its toll at his age... being Mr Sick Note for all his career makes it almost certain he will experience problems consistently and regularly, and building your foundation on "increased responsibility" and reliance on Wood feels very foolish.

Just take bowlers post 2000 listed as "fast" by Cricinfo's definition who played after 32....

Mitchell Johnson's performance after 32 declined by 2 runs per wicket.... he announced his retirement at 33 (and retired not long after his 34th birthday)....

Ryan Harris declined in performance by 2 runs also. After 32 he was only fit for 20 tests in nearly 5 years before retirement. Also worth noting that Harris was a medium pacer most his career until he elevated to international cricket and got fitter and much quicker... so the toll of bowling fast all his life was not present.

Allan Donald.... played only 13 tests before he broke down permanently vs Australia in 2001. Average of 26 and 102 per wicket in his last two test years.

Morne Morkel - Retired at 33 despite a strong level of performance, citing workload and the toll of playing at his age.

Steyn - Played only 15 tests in 4.5 years after turning 32. 4 runs per wicket drop off on average performance. Was never really fit

Drakes - 12 tests, average of 42 per wicket

Wasim Akram - Yearly averages of 59, 31, 26, 25 and one year not registering a wicket to produce an average show a very sharp decline for Akram in later years. The best year is boosted by a monster test match in the WI with the home team missing Lara and other batters.

Shane Bond - Played twice.

Brett Lee - Retired at 32 after 4 tests averaging 40 at that age.

Tino Best - Retired at 32, 5 tests averaging 57 at that age.

Yadav - Only fit for 8 matches in the last 2 years, but performance so far strong (4 under his career average).

Cameron Cuffy - Retired at 32. Comparison on performance not applicable, as he only played a couple of tests before getting a run just before retiring.

Shoaib Akhtar - Retired at 32. 3 matches with 35 average in last year.

Wahab Riaz - Dropped at 32 after falling returns. Never played again.

Ntini... retired at 32. Played 2 tests over this age with average of 116.

Darren Gough.... retired at 32. Average of 215 post this year in 2 tests.

Not listed as fast, but someone who was listed as fast in his 20s but lost pace (Pollock) averaged over 30 past 32 as he continually lost pace.

Also listed are Courtney Walsh/Ambrose, both of which were well past 32 by the time 2000 kicked on - if you track back to their age, Walsh actually improved (and took nearly 300 wickets past this age) by 1 run on his average. Ambrose averaged pretty much consistently through his career. Although neither were fast bowlers.

[sussexpob]

In short, pretty much no modern bowler has managed to consistently stay fit and bowl fast at Wood's age, and all have shown at least some slight decline (Walsh and Ambrose dont, but that takes into account a different time period)... the majority retire or break down permanently at Wood's age, despite stronger fitness history's.

And thats before we get to performance. As stated in the test thread, Wood's wicket average is pretty much the worst out of all consistently picked pace bowlers , in an era of declining wicket averages across the board. Look deeper, it at those figures and they get worse. His average is boosted by two man of the match performances (WI 2019/Hobart 22)....both are in dead rubbers. His performances in live series are shocking.... he averages over 40 in both first and second test matches of series. When series are live, he has consistently not performed well..... actually no, he's consistently performed like a part time 6th bowling option who comes alive in moments that have no value on results.

Woakes is another that has had consistent fitness issues, and his form is declining. He averages 52 away from home, which is staggeringly terrible. He should be considered an absolute no go selection for touring. An average of 52 in 20 tests must be right up there with worst of all time levels for a player given so many chances.

Woakes average vs the top 4 sides in the rankings.... 46,33,50 and 56....

In short, hes been rubbish against quality opposition the whole of his career, and is unpickable away from home.

And yet we want to give these two extra responsibility? Its like giving the guy who stole all the money from the cash register the keys to your shop and a promotion.

If I had to guess, Woakes will probably be permanently dropped soon, maybe even after another horror show away coming up. And history tells us Wood will break down almost 100% certainly by some stage before the end of the year.

And even if he doesnt, he is not worth to tie up Anderson or Broads boots in terms of returns

[Arthur Crabtree]

I think Pollock, Walsh and Ambrose fit into a group with McGrath, Hadlee and Lillee, bowlers who had pace but changed into foxy medium-fast bowlers when they got older. I'm not sure that happens so much now. Fast bowlers just stop playing Tests and specialise in limited overs. Wood will do the latter.

[sussexpob]

The last I would say on the matter is that giving young players chances is all good, but England havent had a spinner lock down the role in a long while sine Swanny retired. Woakes is getting games despite terrible returns. Wood isnt playing at a level that has demanded his constant selection.

If these youngers guys were so warranting of immediate selection, then to be perfectly frank, there are other slots in the team you can start to put them into. If Woakes can get three tests despite nothing in return last series, then I would have to assume the coaches and selectors are either mad not to see quality of others, or the players in reserve werent exactly blowing the doors off.

It seems very strange that in the space of one test match, we have gone from none of the reserve bowlers deserving a chance to replace a total dud, to them being so good we have to get rid of 1200 test wickets to accommodate them.

My last concern is Ben Stokes. I have a feeling Strauss' extra responsibility point was also a nod to him being called upon more to bowl and contribute.... England obviously didnt learn from the Ashes that Stokes looks totally shot and needs managing delicately for obvious reasons, not only physically but mentally too. If anything, I'd be telling the captain he can't put the ball anywhere near Stokes, not anymore.

I really worry for Stokes in the future. I think the nature of his return and the way the team just billed him as "superman returns" is just going to kill him. Id not be a single bit surprised if Stokes retired soon to trawl the 20/20 circuit.

[sussexpob]

Fast bowlers just stop playing Tests and specialise in limited overs. Wood will do the latter.

If I were Wood, I'd have already retired to do that considering his injury history. His contract with Lucknow for a few weeks work is I think around a million Euros... which is probably on par with a full England central contract for a years worth of work. Why risk the earning potential to play the longer format and take the heightened risk of breaking down or fatigue of travel and playing? You could trawl all the T20 competitions and make more money. Someone like Shaun Tait played nearly 10 years of T20 after injuries put the end to the longer formats, so there is no reason he cant make his coin in the next 4-5 years. And I totally wouldnt begrudge him choosing to do that.

But staying on task, the obvious potential and sense of such a move further lowers his value in "future" terms for England. I'd be suprised if Wood is playing for England test team by summer 2023.

[yuppie]

Starc just turned 32, i hope hes not reading SPs list....

[sussexpob]

Starc just turned 32, i hope hes not reading SPs list....

Averaged 35 in his last year + the one test in 2022.... considering that's against a hapless England batting line up, his decline might already be done

[Slipstream]

Our Test Bowling (we aren't short of bowlers)
Anderson
Broad
Stokes
Archer
Wood
Robinson
Curran
Stone
Woakes
Overton
Mahmood
Fisher?
Topley?

Only need 3 plus Stokes so what do the others do? They like rotating but the chosen bowlers need to play at much as possible.
In 2021 we played - Anderson Robinson Wood Broad Woakes Stokes Overton Stone SCurran Archer (10).
In 2011 - Anderson Broad Tremlett Bresnan Finn (5).

Do you pick one from each group, fast, tall, swing
Fast - Archer Wood Stone Mahmood
Tall - Broad Robinson Overton Topley
Swing - Anderson Woakes Fisher & Left arm - Curran Topley

[sussexpob]

I mean, if I wanted to play bad cop with that list Slipstream....

Its arguable if Broad and Anderson will play another game again.

Even assuming Stokes is good to play/bowl like in his prime, he's only worth a wicket per innings at 33, not good to be anything but your 5th bowler. After mental health issues blamed on being overworked, its more than likely he will be bowling much less going forward to preserve his batting.

Wood/Woakes - been covered. Neither are likely to be around much longer given the age, type of bowlers, historical fitness issues and what not.

Assuming he even plays at the first opportunity in the English season, Archer will have spent the best part of a year and a half injured. He's played twice and re-injured himself almost instantly in that time. Last I heard they had operated on him a second time and werent even sure of the diagnosis causing his issues. Out and out pace bowlers dont tend to last long after long injuries.

Olly Stone's last three years in the CC..... 1 game, 2 games, 4 games.... He cant even get fit enough to represent Warwickshire, its a pipe dream to think he will ever be an England regular. Doesnt play OD games either, so he's being kept back just for those games.

Curran - 30 wickets in his last 17 tests indicate even when he's in the team, they wont throw him the ball much. Average of 34, 40 and 58 in his last three test years show a trend downwards. Overall, his average/sr/return per test are all very bad in comparison to players of his era. Away average is noticeably terrible - confirming the suspicions so far that hes a green top swinger who wont transfer to any other type of pitch. Terrible average is also boosted by 9 per wicket vs Ireland.

Overton - Seems to have been around forever. Debuted in 2017, gets a test here and there, but nothing has solidified his place in the team. Another who strikes you as a home specialist.

Topley - Never fit. Will never be a reliable long term pick

Fisher - Never played more than 4 games in a CC season. He's either not fit enough, or he's not even played himself into Yorkshire's first team.... neither scream to me he's about to storm the test game.

Mahmood - He seems to be the next car off the block, and he has obvious upside in skill sets.... but stats from his own team make his own performance a worry. Tom Bailey has significantly out bowled him in recent years. And test class bowlers who have played on the same pitches have also significantly out performed him.... Anderson has played 10 odd games with him in recent years.... average of 7 per wicket in 2019/9 per wicket in 2021.... Mahmood 31/25. Graham Onions averaged 19 in 2019. Even Glenn Maxwell, hardly a great spinner, returned nearly as many wickets in 4 games as Mahmood in 9 games in 2019.... at 11 per wicket less, a better econ, a better strike rate.

Put simply, an average of nearly 30 in FC on those pitches looks very average considering the scores being set and other bowlers ripping teams to shreds. And 13 overs per innings bowled is a very low mark for a top line bowler (Robinson in the same period for instance is over 20 overs per innings)..... and he's a person who's getting questions about his fitness in longer innings. That number of overs bowled is a mystery... he's billed as express pace, but has he proved he can bowl long spells? Because he certainly doesnt seem to be putting many overs in.

[Slipstream]

I mean, if I wanted to play bad cop with that list Slipstream....

Its arguable if Broad and Anderson will play another game again.

Even assuming Stokes is good to play/bowl like in his prime, he's only worth a wicket per innings at 33, not good to be anything but your 5th bowler. After mental health issues blamed on being overworked, its more than likely he will be bowling much less going forward to preserve his batting.

Wood/Woakes - been covered. Neither are likely to be around much longer given the age, type of bowlers, historical fitness issues and what not.

Assuming he even plays at the first opportunity in the English season, Archer will have spent the best part of a year and a half injured. He's played twice and re-injured himself almost instantly in that time. Last I heard they had operated on him a second time and werent even sure of the diagnosis causing his issues. Out and out pace bowlers dont tend to last long after long injuries.

Olly Stone's last three years in the CC..... 1 game, 2 games, 4 games.... He cant even get fit enough to represent Warwickshire, its a pipe dream to think he will ever be an England regular. Doesnt play OD games either, so he's being kept back just for those games.

Curran - 30 wickets in his last 17 tests indicate even when he's in the team, they wont throw him the ball much. Average of 34, 40 and 58 in his last three test years show a trend downwards. Overall, his average/sr/return per test are all very bad in comparison to players of his era. Away average is noticeably terrible - confirming the suspicions so far that hes a green top swinger who wont transfer to any other type of pitch. Terrible average is also boosted by 9 per wicket vs Ireland.

Overton - Seems to have been around forever. Debuted in 2017, gets a test here and there, but nothing has solidified his place in the team. Another who strikes you as a home specialist.

Topley - Never fit. Will never be a reliable long term pick

Fisher - Never played more than 4 games in a CC season. He's either not fit enough, or he's not even played himself into Yorkshire's first team.... neither scream to me he's about to storm the test game.

Mahmood - He seems to be the next car off the block, and he has obvious upside in skill sets.... but stats from his own team make his own performance a worry. Tom Bailey has significantly out bowled him in recent years. And test class bowlers who have played on the same pitches have also significantly out performed him.... Anderson has played 10 odd games with him in recent years.... average of 7 per wicket in 2019/9 per wicket in 2021.... Mahmood 31/25. Graham Onions averaged 19 in 2019. Even Glenn Maxwell, hardly a great spinner, returned nearly as many wickets in 4 games as Mahmood in 9 games in 2019.... at 11 per wicket less, a better econ, a better strike rate.

Put simply, an average of nearly 30 in FC on those pitches looks very average considering the scores being set and other bowlers ripping teams to shreds. And 13 overs per innings bowled is a very low mark for a top line bowler (Robinson in the same period for instance is over 20 overs per innings)..... and he's a person who's getting questions about his fitness in longer innings. That number of overs bowled is a mystery... he's billed as express pace, but has he proved he can bowl long spells? Because he certainly doesnt seem to be putting many overs in.

Thanks for picking big holes in my list. I can't disagree with any of what you say but that is the kind of list I would imagine the selectors have. I am not impressed with Mahmood either. Fast and bowls reverse swing the writers love to say. Fast with the white ball meaning he sometimes reaches 90mph. Also injury prone and I would say temperamental like Overton. Last f/c match with the Lions 30-9-72-0. Fisher not much better 29-7-84-2. Think Carse at Durham is a better bet, faster and can bat.

Topley bowled 200 overs last season so maybe he is over the worst of back injuries

5fers per match
Robinson 4.0
Anderson 5.1, Archer 5.3, Topley 5.3
Norwell 6.2, Carse 6.6
Broad 7.8 , Woakes 7.5, Curran 7.4, Stone 7.33
Overton 8.07
Fisher 10.5
Stokes 21.7
Mahmood 25.0

[bigfluffylemon]

Glad I sparked some debate, although sorry I haven't been back to discuss.

Sussex's post is what I was getting at - it's all well and good to say you are 'looking to the future' or what have you, but when your 'future' options are getting on a bit, past their best, not that good to begin with (*cough* Wood *cough*) or just fail to kick on (like every batsman we've picked since about 2014), the idea of weakening your current squad for alleged 'future gains' looks laughable.

Interesting article here. https://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story ... or-bowling

Puts England's struggles into context. Doesn't excuse them - they are still a terrible batting unit - but batting has been hard for many teams in the last few years. Some of it is no doubt quality of bowling attack - India's fast bowling is the best its ever been, New Zealand's probably is as a whole as well, Australia, South Africa and Pakistan all seem to have a never-ending production line of quality fast bowlers, Anderson and Broad (and Woakes, let's be fair to him) continue to make life miserable for teams visiting England.

But averages have gone down everywhere and for every team against every team. Nice that there is a genuine contest between bat and ball again (although for England, it's no contest - ball wins!). For a while it seemed that batting was too easy and hundreds were the new fifties. Test matches are better when your first innings scores are around 300-350 than racking up 500 every time.

[Slipstream]

Glad I sparked some debate, although sorry I haven't been back to discuss.

Sussex's post is what I was getting at - it's all well and good to say you are 'looking to the future' or what have you, but when your 'future' options are getting on a bit, past their best, not that good to begin with (*cough* Wood *cough*) or just fail to kick on (like every batsman we've picked since about 2014), the idea of weakening your current squad for alleged 'future gains' looks laughable.

Interesting article here. https://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story ... or-bowling

Puts England's struggles into context. Doesn't excuse them - they are still a terrible batting unit - but batting has been hard for many teams in the last few years. Some of it is no doubt quality of bowling attack - India's fast bowling is the best its ever been, New Zealand's probably is as a whole as well, Australia, South Africa and Pakistan all seem to have a never-ending production line of quality fast bowlers, Anderson and Broad (and Woakes, let's be fair to him) continue to make life miserable for teams visiting England.

But averages have gone down everywhere and for every team against every team. Nice that there is a genuine contest between bat and ball again (although for England, it's no contest - ball wins!). For a while it seemed that batting was too easy and hundreds were the new fifties. Test matches are better when your first innings scores are around 300-350 than racking up 500 every time.

Thanks for that excellent link.

[sussexpob]

Jimmy finally breaks his silence on being dropped, calling it "shocking and disappointing". Like Broad he also echoes the fact that Strauss only talked to him briefly and that "many questions" were left unanswered. Jimmy then suggests with Strauss only temporarily in charge, he hopes the new permanent appointment will considered him, and will be working hard to get another final chance at the team.

[Slipstream]

Jimmy finally breaks his silence on being dropped, calling it "shocking and disappointing". Like Broad he also echoes the fact that Strauss only talked to him briefly and that "many questions" were left unanswered. Jimmy then suggests with Strauss only temporarily in charge, he hopes the new permanent appointment will considered him, and will be working hard to get another final chance at the team.

I was thinking when Moores dropped Harmison and Hoggard in New Zealand. Hoggard's career ended. Harmison was lucky that KP was made captain in 2008 and immediately brought Harmison back. KP, a captain that had the power than Root doesn't have. Harmison played 2 Tests under KP and 4 Tests under Strauss when he became the new captain in the West Indies. 9 wickets at 34.89 and Harmison was gone.

I can't see Anderson or Broad playing past this summer even if either took the most wickets. Maybe they will be both given 1 Test, as send off Test against India.

Don't see why the bowling can't evolve naturally. Broad has a few years left in him. Is he a better bowler than Woakes? Will the new bowling be Woakes and Robinson with a fast bowler Wood/Archer/Stone/Mahmood? Maybe we win all 3 Tests in WI with Robinson and Woakes taking the most wickets and Collingwood becomes the coach.

Interest to note Anderson has become a better bowler away from home in the last 2 years

Home (11) 28.94 econ 2.44
Away (8) 14.58 econ 1.77

[Arthur Crabtree]

They looked like they were going to alternate them at one point, but then they always seemed to forget or get distracted.