sussexpob wrote:alfie wrote:Interesting choice of John Crawley as a comparison - though I would submit that comparing figures in this case is a little pointless as he and Stokes performed radically different roles in their teams : what is "good" for an all rounder might be seen as somewhat less so for a top order bat
Maybe a slightly rhetorical question, but at what point does an all-rounder with lowering production in one discipline cease to be an all-rounder? Ben has taken 36 wickets in his last 25 tests.... I cant give you an answer as to what that should be considered, personally I think that falls between part-time/batter who bowls and all-rounder, but the trend downwards and fitness concerns makes me think in the future, its going to fade to one side.
My guess is Stokes future will lie in batting more and more. He is bowling much less, and returning much less when he does. Problem is, his batting average is going downwards recently - and its sharper away from home, and against better quality sides. I think he needs to ditch bowling to preserve and focus on batting, and getting that average up.
Maybe he can turn it around, but I dont think its isolating or manipulating stats to suggest in the last 2 plus calendar years, its downwards trend on both metrics. Its expected for a player with fading fitness and increasing age/responsibility in captaincy.
My point really is, if he cannot upturn his form or even decline slightly more, he cannot sustain his position in the team on performance. Average downtrending from 30 to into the 20s with the bat, and over 35 with the ball..... even a pretty average specialist at that point becomes better for the side.
I don't altogether disagree with you here ; as I also suspect he will bowl less as time goes by - not unnaturally : his style puts a lot of strain on his body. And although he has had his magic moments , he is no Botham with the ball - but still a solid contributor for his team ; perhaps more noted for vital breakthroughs and a willingness to take on the hard work on dirty days than regular excellence ?
Can't agree about downward trends though. You may not have intended to fiddle the figures by selecting 2021 as a starting point ; but as I have shown , that year is a bit of an aberration and 2022/23 do not show any decline in batting so your assertion that his average is heading inexorably into the twenties is simply not true ; while even his bowling figures remained very respectable last year (26 wickets at 31 , despite the inclusion of three games on very flat pitches in Pakistan) He hardly bowled in NZ, and wasn't impressive when he did - but I think I will wait and see what develops before concluding he should become a specialist fielder.
I do think DFM was correct in suggesting that averages are not the best indicator of Stokes' value in any case. Example , leadership and match-winning performances - which he has undeniably produced on a number of notable occasions - are arguably more significant. I don't think his place in the side is at risk just yet
But hey - I do share some of your concern about his bowling , even if I am a little more optimistic. And I hope my optimism is not misplaced as I fear if he cannot put in a solid shift when required in the coming series against Australia then the home team's chance of regaining the urn will take a very serious hit. Don't want - or expect - to see him bowl 20 overs a Test ; but hope he will still be able to produce that little injection of magic when necessary. Guess we will see in three months...