Hoggy England's Best Ever?

[Arthur Crabtree]

A lot of great bowlers there, and Gough wasn't a world great bowler of his time. But still one of England's best of the past four decades. If you relist by SR, Gough is the eighth on the list, and behind only Headley for England players, who only had a short career. Goughie obviously carried a bit too much weight, and in my view that hampered him. He was a good bowler to watch, and between Willis and Harmison, only he, and the erratic Devon Malcolm, ever gave me an impression that England possessed a fast bowling spearhead. Completely wasted his batting ability.

[Gingerfinch]

Gough was great to watch. Sprinted in with heart, and had a great inswinger, ala Waqar. I remember him giving Crowe a few problems in 1994, which was I think his debut series.

[Arthur Crabtree]

A strange period for nNgland leading up to Gough's introduction. It felt a dismal time for England, yet the years leading up to 1994 included the brilliant series in the West Indies where Gooch's team took on and competed against the West Indies. England fielded an all pace attack, with Gladstone Small, Angus Fraser, Devon Malcolm and David Capel (it was the 2005 Ashes of the 1990s, except you couldn't watch it)). England drew at home with the West Indies and the Headingley Test of that year, and the one against Pakistan the next year, featured a very effective attack of specialists (a bit like The Wild Geese) which was barely trusted to operate on another pitch: this was Steve Watkin (average 27.7), Neil Mallender (21.5!), Derek Pringle and Fraser.

Yet with the heavy loss of back to back the Ashes, a whitewash in India, a defeat to Hadlee's Kiwis, it also felt the worst of times. The fact that Botham still hung around demonstrated how desperately England clung on for a miracle. Defreitas stayed around, never quite cashing in on the promise he had shown in the 1986-7 Ashes. Chris Lewis was inconsistent.

And this lot of one night stands, brief encounters, charity dates and missed opportunities got games for England in the four years before Gough's debut.

Neil Foster
Phil Newport
Neil Williams
Alan Igglesden
Martin McCague
Paul Taylor
Paul Jarvis
Tim Munton
David Lawrence
Mark Illott
Peter Martin
Joey Benjamin

and, Dermot Reeve, sort of.

As well as the one you always wondered 'what if' about, Martin Bicknell, and players who would go on to make an impression, Andy Caddick and Craig White.

Including Gough, that's about 27 players. Gough came into this world of series destroying injuries (usually Fraser), blank canvases and muddled selection and responded with optimism. You watched him bowl a few balls and immediately you knew he was good enough to compete against fine players. He emerged fully formed as so obviously an international class bowler that it was jaw dropping. I could hardly believe it. Where had he come from? As an England supporter, it was a big wake up.

Obviously he got injured a lot himself. But I reckon only Botham compares (and surpasses) as an England bowler who was so obviously good, straight away. And Swann, but he wasn't a young kid.

[alfie]

A lot of good points there , Arthur ...and very thorough

Also brings back a few memories : Neil Mallender ; surely some future browser of old cricket records will look at his figures and conclude he must have suffered an untimely and career ending injury ...The ultimate horses for courses selection ; yet he let no-one down at the Oval , and was harshly dismissed as unlikely to succeed on subcontinental pitches on the winter tours - a bit like David Steele twenty years earlier. I thought at the time he should have been allowed to at least prove that theory , one way or the other. And as for fairness ? Forget it...

But back to Gough : totally agree with your sentiments re his taking to Test Cricket like a duck to water ; and also , rather less fortunately , his apparent disregard for his originally promising batting , to the point where it virtually disappeared (So Broad isn't the only one , eh?)
He was a wholehearted performer , always good to watch , and capable of some incisive efforts on his day. If I prefer Fraser of his group , it may point to my inclination towards bowlers who excel in accuracy and control - or possibly my Middlesex bias . And it may also be that I have subconsciously marked him down a little due to his ill-fortune in taking part in a number of unsuccessful Ashes contests...not that I'd put much of the blame for those defeats on him. But I note all my "first rank " bowlers have Ashes winning ticks on their cards...
Can't quite fit him on that top table . But I did admire him , and can understand that others may rate him a little higher.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Tredwell is another whose figures might be baffling in the future. And to me, not having seen him, Ken Higgs.

Joey Benjamin took about 4-80 in his only Test, from memory. A The Oval one capper.

In my lifetime team, Willis, Flintoff, Botham feels obvious, and then the other choice could be almost anyone, but I have Angus Fraser down, out of the pack. He did well against WI, which was the ultimate test of the time. He was a key to some sensational wins in a time when the odd victory against the odds was the best you could expect. And, even though much was against him, he had the best average of the candidates.

[Gingerfinch]

Tredwell is another whose figures might be baffling in the future. And to me, not having seen him, Ken Higgs.

Joey Benjamin took about 4-80 in his only Test, from memory. A The Oval one capper.

In my lifetime team, Willis, Flintoff, Botham feels obvious, and then the other choice could be almost anyone, but I have Angus Fraser down, out of the pack. He did well against WI, which was the ultimate test of the time. He was a key to some sensational wins in a time when the odd victory against the odds was the best you could expect. And, even though much was against him, he had the best average of the candidates.

Weren't the Aussies more of a powerhouse, certainly in the batting department, when Fraser played, for most part of his career?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Seeing as most posters are of a certain age, we've tended to centre on the bowlers from the mid seventies onwards (a couple of very good posts go further back). So it's worth restating that surely Fred Truman must have been the best. Barnes, though mysterious, has to be considered. Laker was probably England's best spinner. And then Verity, Wardle, Bedser, Tyson, Larwood, Statham would be discussed. Snow and Underwood of the sixties/seventies players.

[Gingerfinch]

Is it fair to say that the 80's was a relatively weak era, when speaking of English pacemen?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Tredwell is another whose figures might be baffling in the future. And to me, not having seen him, Ken Higgs.

Joey Benjamin took about 4-80 in his only Test, from memory. A The Oval one capper.

In my lifetime team, Willis, Flintoff, Botham feels obvious, and then the other choice could be almost anyone, but I have Angus Fraser down, out of the pack. He did well against WI, which was the ultimate test of the time. He was a key to some sensational wins in a time when the odd victory against the odds was the best you could expect. And, even though much was against him, he had the best average of the candidates.

Weren't the Aussies more of a powerhouse, certainly in the batting department, when Fraser played, for most part of his career?

West Indies were considered the best team until 1995 when Waugh's Aussies beat them, so that was for most of Fraser's career. But, you could argue that Australia's batting was better.

[Gingerfinch]

Tredwell is another whose figures might be baffling in the future. And to me, not having seen him, Ken Higgs.

Joey Benjamin took about 4-80 in his only Test, from memory. A The Oval one capper.

In my lifetime team, Willis, Flintoff, Botham feels obvious, and then the other choice could be almost anyone, but I have Angus Fraser down, out of the pack. He did well against WI, which was the ultimate test of the time. He was a key to some sensational wins in a time when the odd victory against the odds was the best you could expect. And, even though much was against him, he had the best average of the candidates.

Weren't the Aussies more of a powerhouse, certainly in the batting department, when Fraser played, for most part of his career?

West Indies were considered the best team until 1995 when Waugh's Aussies beat them, so that was for most of Fraser's career. But, you could argue that Australia's batting was better.

The Windies began to lose it before that, imo. The Aussies were hammering us in the early 90's, but we were almost or maybe on par with the windies.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Is it fair to say that the 80's was a relatively weak era, when speaking of English pacemen?

There were people of promise, like Dilley and Defreitas who didn't achieve what they might. Botham had peaked by about 1980. Fraser, later in the eighties was a fine England bowler.

There have been two discussions, best we've seen, and the best ever. In my view, post Botham, only Swann merits discussion among the all time greats from this country, because of his Lakeresque strike rate. But stats suggest that apart from Willis, Underwood, Botham and Swann (who many of us have seen), only Alfie, Albondiga and KJ have seen the very best England bowlers. And there are other candidates beyond.

The BBC stats were weighed towards more recent players because they had to have a certain amount of wickets to qualify, and few players in the past played enough to clear that hurdle. Beyond that point, the methodology seems pretty arbitrary.

[Making_Splinters]

It is interesting that it is oft said that batting is getting easier but rarely said that bowling is getting harder.

[Gingerfinch]

It is interesting that it is oft said that batting is getting easier but rarely said that bowling is getting harder.

That's why Steyn's stats look so damn good.

[greyblazer]

Of course, it is harder now to get wickets. Barring the odd series like against India last year, even the tracks in England aren't offering much for the pacers. Anyway, it was Taylor's Aussies that beat WI in 1995

[Arthur Crabtree]

After the Trent Bridge pitch debacle,the ECB produced four bowlers tracks. The Lord's pitch might have been the greenest wicket ever produced. Of course, you can't order up cloud, but the TB pitch was a one off last summer, and we get very few draws in England generally.