Hoggy England's Best Ever?

[Gingerfinch]

From what I have see, my 7-11 would be:

Flintoff
Swann
Gough
Anderson
Fraser/Caddick/Hoggard

no bopara ?

He's at six

[braveneutral]

From what I have see, my 7-11 would be:

Flintoff
Swann
Gough
Anderson
Fraser/Caddick/Hoggard

no bopara ?

He's at six

Good call.

[greyblazer]

Among the pacers I have seen.

Anderson
Gough
Caddick
Flintoff
Fraser
Broad
Harmison
Hoggard

Simon Jones played too few Tests. If Flintoff had bowled a fuller length, he would have been the best in my list.

[greyblazer]

Of course, you have to also think of Gough. What a terrific bowler. Just let down by injuries.

[sussexpob]

Of course, you have to also think of Gough. What a terrific bowler. Just let down by injuries.

Was it injuries, or a lack of control with his length?

[greyblazer]

Oops! I forgot Broad haha. Added him now to the list. Leaving a barren period in 1995, Gough's control was on the money for me. Those spells in Pak and more so in SL were as good as any.

[sussexpob]

Oops! I forgot Broad haha. Added him now to the list. Leaving a barren period in 1995, Gough's control was on the money for me. Those spells in Pak and more so in SL were as good as any.

I always felt at his worst, Gough bowled too full too often, looking for the ball to swing. That is why he ended up very expensive for his era.....

[westoelad]

Of course, you have to also think of Gough. What a terrific bowler. Just let down by injuries.

Was it injuries, or a lack of control with his length?

Or lack of control of his diet?

[greyblazer]

I don't think he did, but even then it is better to bowl too full rather than bang it short. And that is why his average perhaps used to be around 26 or 27. I know he ended up with an average of 28, but he should have never played those Tests against SA in 2003 as he was well past his best by then.

[alfie]

My memories of England fast bowling start with Trueman and Statham ; and to be honest I would only nominate a very small group of later players to sit at the top table with them ...in chronological order :

Snow. Willis. Botham.

I don't think you can fully evaluate a player until he finishes . But I do feel that Anderson , after a less than illustrious early career , is now on track to join them.

I'd have a bunch of others ( Gough , Fraser , Caddick , Hoggard , Harmison - perhaps a couple more ) on the second rung. Flintoff too , of course ; though he rates higher as an allrounder.

Jones is a problem ; because he looked like being a real star - only to be struck down just as he hit a peak. Who knows how good he would have been ? As it is the brevity of his career makes categorization difficult.

Broad is young enough to push his case still ; but injuries threaten to stop him quite reaching the heights he may have attained. We shall see.

Spinners ? Laker. Underwood. Swann ...of those I've seen . (Though I was rather young when I saw Laker so that is , to be honest , based more on hearsay)

Agree with KipperJohn : you can look at stats - in various versions - all you like ; but it really is a (subjective) judgement that we all make based on our own observations. And it seems there isn't that much difference between the views of the number of posters who have been commenting on this thread...

[backfootpunch]

I don't think he did, but even then it is better to bowl too full rather than bang it short. And that is why his average perhaps used to be around 26 or 27. I know he ended up with an average of 28, but he should have never played those Tests against SA in 2003 as he was well past his best by then.

id say the condidtions in the 90s were far more helpful to fast bowling than they have been for the last 6 or 7 years (when jimmy has played the bulk of his tests)

an average of around 30 these days is equivalent to 25 in the 90s, its the same with batting where the benchmark for a world class batter was 40+ back then and is 50+ now

even in half the tests in this country there is little or no help for the seamers and the pitches everywhere other than SA are roads these days

for that reason i would put both jimmy and broad ahead of the likes of gough, caddick etc

[sussexpob]

I don't think he did, but even then it is better to bowl too full rather than bang it short. And that is why his average perhaps used to be around 26 or 27. I know he ended up with an average of 28, but he should have never played those Tests against SA in 2003 as he was well past his best by then.

I would guess he underperformed consistently throughout his career against the Aussies and the South Africans. He also avoided playing when the Indians toured in the early 2000's as he was injured and not sure he ever bowled against Tendulkar/Dravid/Laxman/Aza or Ganguly, so did he ever really do it against good batting line ups?

I think his average was actually always in the 28-30 range until that year in 2000 when he and Caddick tore Zimbabwe and Windies apart. Those pitches even then were still lively, at Headingley the ball swung all over the place, and at Lords the ball was at one moment whistling round peoples ears, then rolling along the floor. Very difficult batting conditions against teams that were very poor batting units (the commendable effort by Ambrose and Walsh was the only thing saving the Windies from shambolic embarrassment by memory)... it didn't mean much.

Of course, any Englishman must remember a charging Gough bowling quick and well, and he was a shining light in a dark period of England being a rubbish team. Can moments like his Hat-trick in 1998-99 be beaten for pure emotion? Probably not. But the nostalgia wore off and even then I had to appreciate he was a bowler who just wasn't at the top level.

I think Anderson is a much better player.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I've looked this up before bfp, and the pitches in the noughties helped bring about a glut of runs, but runs per wicket in the teens are typical of the majority of decades over the years. The seventies stands out as a decade where scoring runs was very tough, with rpw dropping. Since Anderson established himself in the England side in 2009, rpw haven't been particularly high.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Gough was pretty handy in Asian conditions. He did well in Australia too, though got injured all too often.

[sussexpob]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... l1=wickets

28th on the list of bowlers averages for players taking more than 50 wickets in his carer span...... nearly 3 players per team better than him, and 4th of English bowlers.