There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

[braveneutral]

Yep that would do it you would hope.

[Dr Cricket]

or you cannot acknowledge that the same amount of foreign players don't play county cricket anymore and probably wont in the future especially from the Sub Continent, even you cannot find the reason for why pakistani or Sri lankan players don't participate.

Well it looks like BCCI and ECB have gotten on with it with England not getting any warm up games for the Test matches.

Anyway the England cricket team are the ones losing out with limited lions playing programme and no warm up games in India.
lions cannot even announce winter fixture yet with them having issues finding possible teams to play against.

If you watched the Sri Lanka series earlier this summer it's pretty clear why counties aren't that interested in the Sri Lankan players, top Sri Lankan players have played over here in the past, but they are a little thin on the ground at present.

Most Counties are looking for an overseas player that offers a certain set of skills that can play all summer, that is an increasingly narrowing pool especially compared to the past. Also only one overseas player is allowed in LVCC and the tightening of regulations have reduced the opportunities for overseas players. Also many players are now looking for the biggest pay day in their free time rather than the best developmental opportunity, and the LVCC is no longer the best pay cheque a player can pick up for obvious reasons.

Pretty obvious therefore why the same number of overseas players don't play in the County Championship, and a very moot point. The fact remains that the English domestic game has more overseas players in it, than any other top level first class cricket competition. Historically it has helped develop a huge number of players from all round the world and you'll find many players who are viewed as a County's player over being a international player.

I know all this and made these point in earlier post, but some poster can't accept times have changed and players cant play county cricket anymore.

I don't have any issues with overseas player in county cricket or Domestic cricket, but I do have issues with County cricket having an effect on lions tours in the summer and the county setup making it difficult for ECB to arrange lions fixtures or the fact people can't see more than 15 or 20 people from the same country can't have county experience or first class games in the same country at the same time, which is why the number of A tours have increased in recent years.
Australia, India, SA A regularly play 8-10 First class games year in various countries, in recent times the only country india A hasn't toured is England and Sri lanka excluding Pakistan and UAE.
went NZ before the NZ test series, Went west indies 2 yrs ago and of course got a deal with SA and Aus so play regularly every year with those nations with the host changing ever 7-12 months.

[Making_Splinters]

or you cannot acknowledge that the same amount of foreign players don't play county cricket anymore and probably wont in the future especially from the Sub Continent, even you cannot find the reason for why pakistani or Sri lankan players don't participate.

Well it looks like BCCI and ECB have gotten on with it with England not getting any warm up games for the Test matches.

Anyway the England cricket team are the ones losing out with limited lions playing programme and no warm up games in India.
lions cannot even announce winter fixture yet with them having issues finding possible teams to play against.

If you watched the Sri Lanka series earlier this summer it's pretty clear why counties aren't that interested in the Sri Lankan players, top Sri Lankan players have played over here in the past, but they are a little thin on the ground at present.

Most Counties are looking for an overseas player that offers a certain set of skills that can play all summer, that is an increasingly narrowing pool especially compared to the past. Also only one overseas player is allowed in LVCC and the tightening of regulations have reduced the opportunities for overseas players. Also many players are now looking for the biggest pay day in their free time rather than the best developmental opportunity, and the LVCC is no longer the best pay cheque a player can pick up for obvious reasons.

Pretty obvious therefore why the same number of overseas players don't play in the County Championship, and a very moot point. The fact remains that the English domestic game has more overseas players in it, than any other top level first class cricket competition. Historically it has helped develop a huge number of players from all round the world and you'll find many players who are viewed as a County's player over being a international player.

I know all this and made these point in earlier post, but some poster can't accept times have changed and players cant play county cricket anymore.

I don't have any issues with overseas player in county cricket or Domestic cricket, but I do have issues with County cricket having an effect on lions tours in the summer and the county setup making it difficult for ECB to arrange lions fixtures or the fact people can't see more than 15 or 20 people from the same country can't have county experience or first class games in the same country at the same time, which is why the number of A tours have increased in recent years.
Australia, India, SA A regularly play 8-10 First class games year in various countries, in recent times the only country india A hasn't toured is England and Sri lanka excluding Pakistan and UAE.
went NZ before the NZ test series, Went west indies 2 yrs ago and of course got a deal with SA and Aus so play regularly every year with those nations with the host changing ever 7-12 months.

Players can and do still play country cricket, the traditional countries that are represented in county cricket still have a decent presence, with only the top West Indian players being in lower numbers, that said, look at the state of West Indian Test cricket.

Most countries have a shorter domestic season than England which explains why the lions have fewer games during the English season, also the best English players are spread out amongst the Counties, with a lot at stake for the Counties during the season it's simple to understand why a county might not want to lose their one international class player.

[Alviro Patterson]

I know all this and made these point in earlier post, but some poster can't accept times have changed and players cant play county cricket anymore.

I don't have any issues with overseas player in county cricket or Domestic cricket, but I do have issues with County cricket having an effect on lions tours in the summer and the county setup making it difficult for ECB to arrange lions fixtures or the fact people can't see more than 15 or 20 people from the same country can't have county experience or first class games in the same country at the same time, which is why the number of A tours have increased in recent years.
Australia, India, SA A regularly play 8-10 First class games year in various countries, in recent times the only country india A hasn't toured is England and Sri lanka excluding Pakistan and UAE.
went NZ before the NZ test series, Went west indies 2 yrs ago and of course got a deal with SA and Aus so play regularly every year with those nations with the host changing ever 7-12 months.

Australia, South Africa and India tend to play and host "A" team matches during the off-season. England simply don't have the ability to play cricket at home in February!

Lions games during the summer are a nuisance for Counties and players are not going to learn much against 3rd rate opposition in meaningless matches.

[Dr Cricket]

or you cannot acknowledge that the same amount of foreign players don't play county cricket anymore and probably wont in the future especially from the Sub Continent, even you cannot find the reason for why pakistani or Sri lankan players don't participate.

Well it looks like BCCI and ECB have gotten on with it with England not getting any warm up games for the Test matches.

Anyway the England cricket team are the ones losing out with limited lions playing programme and no warm up games in India.
lions cannot even announce winter fixture yet with them having issues finding possible teams to play against.

If you watched the Sri Lanka series earlier this summer it's pretty clear why counties aren't that interested in the Sri Lankan players, top Sri Lankan players have played over here in the past, but they are a little thin on the ground at present.

Most Counties are looking for an overseas player that offers a certain set of skills that can play all summer, that is an increasingly narrowing pool especially compared to the past. Also only one overseas player is allowed in LVCC and the tightening of regulations have reduced the opportunities for overseas players. Also many players are now looking for the biggest pay day in their free time rather than the best developmental opportunity, and the LVCC is no longer the best pay cheque a player can pick up for obvious reasons.

Pretty obvious therefore why the same number of overseas players don't play in the County Championship, and a very moot point. The fact remains that the English domestic game has more overseas players in it, than any other top level first class cricket competition. Historically it has helped develop a huge number of players from all round the world and you'll find many players who are viewed as a County's player over being a international player.[/quote]

I know all this and made these point in earlier post, but some poster can't accept times have changed and players cant play county cricket anymore.

I don't have any issues with overseas player in county cricket or Domestic cricket, but I do have issues with County cricket having an effect on lions tours in the summer and the county setup making it difficult for ECB to arrange lions fixtures or the fact people can't see more than 15 or 20 people from the same country can't have county experience or first class games in the same country at the same time, which is why the number of A tours have increased in recent years.
Australia, India, SA A regularly play 8-10 First class games year in various countries, in recent times the only country india A hasn't toured is England and Sri lanka excluding Pakistan and UAE.
went NZ before the NZ test series, Went west indies 2 yrs ago and of course got a deal with SA and Aus so play regularly every year with those nations with the host changing ever 7-12 months.[/quote]

Players can and do still play country cricket, the traditional countries that are represented in county cricket still have a decent presence, with only the top West Indian players being in lower numbers, that said, look at the state of West Indian Test cricket.

Most countries have a shorter domestic season than England which explains why the lions have fewer games during the English season, also the best English players are spread out amongst the Counties, with a lot at stake for the Counties during the season it's simple to understand why a county might not want to lose their one international class player.[/quote]

is that a nice way of just saying white countries or something.
I think it is more beneficial for the England team if they played more lions games then county cricket especially if county cricket is affecting the ability for the lions to play games in the winter.

[Dr Cricket]

I know all this and made these point in earlier post, but some poster can't accept times have changed and players cant play county cricket anymore.

I don't have any issues with overseas player in county cricket or Domestic cricket, but I do have issues with County cricket having an effect on lions tours in the summer and the county setup making it difficult for ECB to arrange lions fixtures or the fact people can't see more than 15 or 20 people from the same country can't have county experience or first class games in the same country at the same time, which is why the number of A tours have increased in recent years.
Australia, India, SA A regularly play 8-10 First class games year in various countries, in recent times the only country india A hasn't toured is England and Sri lanka excluding Pakistan and UAE.
went NZ before the NZ test series, Went west indies 2 yrs ago and of course got a deal with SA and Aus so play regularly every year with those nations with the host changing ever 7-12 months.

Australia, South Africa and India tend to play and host "A" team matches during the off-season. England simply don't have the ability to play cricket at home in February!

Lions games during the summer are a nuisance for Counties and players are not going to learn much against 3rd rate opposition in meaningless matches.

not exactly true is it with Australia hosting games during August and them generally playing games whenever they can in the schedule, india have hosted games in October, SA around April, June and Australia during early part of the domestic season or around june/july.
if anything those countries are more like to play lions more since the English home season is during their quiet period.

lolz if you think A tours are less quality than county games.
Wonder how flower gonna pick players now doesn't trust County cricket and england barely play lions cricket unless of course he picks them on his favourite criteria attitude and if they looks like a player or belong from the right group.

[Making_Splinters]

is that a nice way of just saying white countries or something.
I think it is more beneficial for the England team if they played more lions games then county cricket especially if county cricket is affecting the ability for the lions to play games in the winter.

No, it's not. There's a very strong tradition of cricketers from all countries playing in England. It's saying that the current standard of cricket in Sri Lanka and the West Indies is such that if you're going to make a signing then it's very unlikely they are going to be coming from there. Your decent South African or Australian domestic player is likely to have a bigger impact on the quality of a side over the majority of players from the weaker Test nations, even the Test players. The good players from these countries still get picked up such as Sanga at Surrey or Sarwan who closed out his career playing at the Foxes.

At the end of the day, there would be not Lions or Test cricketers with out County cricket, if you're a side like Northants would you be happy with Duckett missing Championship games to play for the Lions? Not when he's your best batsman by a long way, would Durham next season be happy for Jennings to miss games to play for the Lions? Have you seen their batting line up? There's a lot at stake to avoid the drop for first division sides, and even more at stake for second Division sides to push for promotion. For some sides the Limited overs competitions are their main goals of the season, so missing key players for those matches is a body blow not many will want.

It's easy to suggest that County cricket is there only to serve the international game, but that's not really the case. Just saying the Lions should take precedence doesn't mean a whole lot to be honest, and you're not offering any realistic - i.e. ones that could actually happen - ways of achieving this.

[Alviro Patterson]

Australia, South Africa and India tend to play and host "A" team matches during the off-season. England simply don't have the ability to play cricket at home in February!

Lions games during the summer are a nuisance for Counties and players are not going to learn much against 3rd rate opposition in meaningless matches.

not exactly true is it with Australia hosting games during August and them generally playing games whenever they can in the schedule, india have hosted games in October, SA around April, June and Australia during early part of the domestic season or around june/july.
if anything those countries are more like to play lions more since the English home season is during their quiet period.

lolz if you think A tours are less quality than county games.
Wonder how flower gonna pick players now doesn't trust County cricket and england barely play lions cricket unless of course he picks them on his favourite criteria attitude and if they looks like a player or belong from the right group.

In the last three years (which is relevant to the argument as England Lions home matches have got watered down from then) India, Australia and South Africa have played their "A" team cricket outside their own domestic season between July and early September. Except for South Africa hosting England Lions in January-February 2015.

The most recent India and Australia "A" team series (2015 and 2016) are six weeks long and six weeks is a long time in domestic cricket. If there was a six week long Lions series in the height of an English summer, counties are rightly going to be angry in losing their best players for a prolonged period of time because it's them who develop and bring through players. Without County Cricket, there would be no England Cricket.

[Dr Cricket]

What about pakistan then, a top test team yet can't get players playing County cricket. Misbah been looking for a county for ages now with no luck and can imagine Asad Shafiq, Azhar Ali, Yasir Shah all being top targets for counties yet no interest what is going on.

well for one realistic option ECB just screwing the counties and playing lions games in the summer, they probably have no option but to do it if they can't find fixtures in the winter and getting games in the winter is based on them playing a similar tour or the same tour in the summer in England.

The counties will just have to live with it if they top players are missing for a few weeks if ECB wants a lions programme in the winter or summer.

[Dr Cricket]

Australia, South Africa and India tend to play and host "A" team matches during the off-season. England simply don't have the ability to play cricket at home in February!

Lions games during the summer are a nuisance for Counties and players are not going to learn much against 3rd rate opposition in meaningless matches.

not exactly true is it with Australia hosting games during August and them generally playing games whenever they can in the schedule, india have hosted games in October, SA around April, June and Australia during early part of the domestic season or around june/july.
if anything those countries are more like to play lions more since the English home season is during their quiet period.

lolz if you think A tours are less quality than county games.
Wonder how flower gonna pick players now doesn't trust County cricket and england barely play lions cricket unless of course he picks them on his favourite criteria attitude and if they looks like a player or belong from the right group.

In the last three years (which is relevant to the argument as England Lions home matches have got watered down from then) India, Australia and South Africa have played their "A" team cricket outside their own domestic season between July and early September. Except for South Africa hosting England Lions in January-February 2015.

The most recent India and Australia "A" team series (2015 and 2016) are six weeks long and six weeks is a long time in domestic cricket. If there was a six week long Lions series in the height of an English summer, counties are rightly going to be angry in losing their best players for a prolonged period of time because it's them who develop and bring through players. Without County Cricket, there would be no England Cricket.

Counties might have no choice but to take it if ECB feel they need home summer games to get winter lions tours and counties essentially can't complain with ECB essentially giving them most of the money to survive.

[Making_Splinters]

What about pakistan then, a top test team yet can't get players playing County cricket.

well for one realistic option ECB just screwing the counties and playing lions games in the summer, they probably have no option but to do it if they can't find fixtures in the winter and getting games in the winter is based on them playing a similar tour or the same tour in the summer in England.

The counties will just have to live with it if they top players are missing for a few weeks if ECB wants a lions programme in the winter or summer.

The ECB can't just demand Counties release players for Lions games as far as I am aware, nor can it make players agree to play. They are not centrally contracted after all, so no, that's not a realistic option.

There have been many Pakistani players who've played over here, out of the recent players Ajmal was at Worcestershire the season before last, Younis has played for three or four counties over the years, not recently though for some reason. Malik has been over here recently I think too.

[Dr Cricket]

What about pakistan then, a top test team yet can't get players playing County cricket.

well for one realistic option ECB just screwing the counties and playing lions games in the summer, they probably have no option but to do it if they can't find fixtures in the winter and getting games in the winter is based on them playing a similar tour or the same tour in the summer in England.

The counties will just have to live with it if they top players are missing for a few weeks if ECB wants a lions programme in the winter or summer.

The ECB can't just demand Counties release players for Lions games as far as I am aware, nor can it make players agree to play. They are not centrally contracted after all, so no, that's not a realistic option.

There have been many Pakistani players who've played over here, out of the recent players Ajmal was at Worcestershire the season before last, Younis has played for three or four counties over the years, not recently though for some reason. Malik has been over here recently I think too.

I am pretty sure ECB can considering they probably threaten counties with fines or give them no financial help which the counties need, plus I highly doubt players will say no if it help them get selected to england squad or teams.

[Making_Splinters]

What about pakistan then, a top test team yet can't get players playing County cricket.

well for one realistic option ECB just screwing the counties and playing lions games in the summer, they probably have no option but to do it if they can't find fixtures in the winter and getting games in the winter is based on them playing a similar tour or the same tour in the summer in England.

The counties will just have to live with it if they top players are missing for a few weeks if ECB wants a lions programme in the winter or summer.

The ECB can't just demand Counties release players for Lions games as far as I am aware, nor can it make players agree to play. They are not centrally contracted after all, so no, that's not a realistic option.

There have been many Pakistani players who've played over here, out of the recent players Ajmal was at Worcestershire the season before last, Younis has played for three or four counties over the years, not recently though for some reason. Malik has been over here recently I think too.

I am pretty sure ECB can considering they probably threaten counties with fines or give them no financial help which the counties need, plus I highly doubt players will say no if it help them get selected to england squad or teams.

No, the ECB can't just fine sides, nor can they withhold funding. Even if they wanted to implement such an idea it would have to be voted on by Counties, who aren't going to allow it to happen.

[Alviro Patterson]

Counties might have no choice but to take it if ECB feel they need home summer games to get winter lions tours and counties essentially can't complain with ECB essentially giving them most of the money to survive.

"If" being the operative word.

Colin Graves wants counties to become self-sufficient and end the culture of money generated from international cricket propping up the counties, that is fact. Taking more players away from counties during the domestic season (there is a reason why a domestic season exists) is self-defeating in more ways than one. Standard of County Cricket drops to a point where First Class status is in all but name, domestic revenue goes down (membership, matchday and sponsorship).

Then there is the cost of hosting these "A" tours, which get very little in return other than seeing if there any players who are fit for international cricket. Is it worth damaging the fabric of County Cricket just to appease a few test nations?

[sussexpob]

I know all this and made these point in earlier post, but some poster can't accept times have changed and players cant play county cricket anymore

Here is a list of individual counties from the 2016 by how many players they have that are non-English by qualification by birth.

Derbyshire - 3 x NZ, 1 x SA and 1 x Ireland = 5
Durham - 2 x irish, 2 x SA, 2 x Scottish (if you count Keaton Jennings as SA) = 6
Essex - 2 x PK, 2 x NZ, 2 x AUS, 1 x NET, 1 x SCOT = 8
Glamorgan - 4 x SA, 3 x AUS, 1 x NET, 1 x SCOT = 9
Glocs - 3 x AUS, 2 x SA, 1 x NZ = 6
Hampshire - 3 x WI, 1 x ITA(but really SA), 1 x Zim, 2 x PK, 2 x SA, 1 x SCOT = 10
Kent - 3 x SA and 1 x NZ = 4
Lancs - 1 x SA, 1 x ZIM, 2 x NZ = 4
Leics - 3 x AUS, 3 x SA, 2 x PK, 1 x IRE =9
Middlesex - 3 x AUS, 4 x NZ, 2 x IRE, 1 x USA.... (also have 5 players non-English born who qualified for England) = 10
Northants - 3 x SA, 1 x PK, 1 x SL, 1 x SCOT, 1 x IRE = 7
Notts - 3 x AUS, 1 x WI, 1 x SA, 1 x ZIM = 6
Somerset - 2 x AUS, 1 x WI, 1 x SL, 2 x NET, 2 x SCOT, 2 x SA =10
Surrey - 1 x SL, 2 x WI, 1 x AUS, 3 x SA, 1 x PAK = 8
Sussex - 1 x AUS, 1 x BD, 1 x SA, 1x SL, 1 x NZ, 2 x SCOT, 1 x IRE, 2 x WI =10
Warwickshire - 2 x NZ, 2 x AUS, 2 x IRE, 1 x SCOT = 7
Worcs - 2 x NZ, 1 x SA, 2 x AUS, 1 x NET =6
Yorkshire, 1 x NZ, 1 x ZIM, 1 x PAK, 2 x AUS = 5

Total = 130

Average = 7.22 per team




Time have changed indeed...... there are more foreign players in county cricket now then there have ever been. Literally ever.

If you can find me another year in the history of the game where each team averaged 7.22 foreign players, Ill conceded the point..... you simply wont.

Your whole point is utterly flawed based on a misconception that is destroyed with actual evidence. Much the same as basically all the points you have raised here.

Do your research