There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:09 pm

Slipstream wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
Slipstream wrote: A lot to choose from. Rotation will carry on. Will Robinson make his debut this year?


England want enforcer bowlers who crank it up to 300mph and bang it in short, the minute Robbo gets a shot and does average half the England fan following will be calling laying into him for bowling in slow motion. I cant for that reason see him lasting long or getting a shot, unless he rips someone apart first up and buys time.

The thought of the usual England approach; wreck the bowler forever by asking him to bowl 10mph more than he's capable of, makes me hope in a way he doesnt get called up. The thought of another talented medium-fast bowler crippled and playing 3 games a year isnt that exciting.

Although the lad deserves a shot. Be nice when he gets a cap, hes been bloody fantastic for us.


He has been fantastic for you. If there is no Stokes, Curran or Woakes IPL then there might be a debut v New Zealand.

How tall is he? I have read anything from 6'1 to 6'5. Also can't get a reliable height for Archer.


Never measured him. He appears tall to me, but then again I'm not very tall, so everyone does. Certainly gets the ball to hop off a length, and his bouncer is quite deadly for a slow guy
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:03 am

Given our two most successful bowlers of the last 20 years have been bowling 80-83 mph most of their careers, you'd have thought we'd have left that mindset behind. But there still seems to be a proportion of the English public who are still in Duncan Fletcher 2005 mode - pace above everything. There seems to be an absolute belief that we can only win overseas with super fast bowlers, and having the skill to exploit English conditions makes the wins at home cheaper somehow.

Who was our bowling attack when we won in Australia in 2010? Broad, Anderson, Bresnan and Tremlett. No lightning speed there, mainly accuracy and movement. India just won in Australia without express pace but with excellent discipline. How quick was McGrath, Australia's most successful ever pace bowler? How well did the lightning pace of Cummins and Starc do at breaking through against the Indian batting line up? Only managed 20 wickets once in four games. Pace ain't everything, even in Australia.

Agree totally with Sussex, England have a horrible habit of taking people who have some natural pace and promising talent and then breaking them. Finn is a prime example. Now Archer looks like he's heading in the same direction.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:55 am

Even those players that disprove the theory have in their careers been pushed through the process. Anderson was the 90mph tear away quick who spent years getting spanked around spraying it all over the wicket, and in many ways England are lucky that he ever had a career of any note, because until (by memory) he tore apart a terrible WI batting line up sometime in April at CLS in the most seamer friendly conditions you'd ever find around 2009, he was one match away from being ended as a test prospect (a lot would argue that moment passed in 06-07, many people demanded England completely move on from him after that Ashes). Broad was England's "enforcer" as once tagged by the team management, which meant banging in half trackers as quickly as possible, and ending usually in him being rubbish and turning up in later tests in the summer bowling at half pace. Bresnan was a military medium to start with, cranked it up to the mid-80s around that time, required surgery and faded into mediocrity for the rest of his international career. Tremlett famously had Shane Warne rejig his action to extract more pace, quickly got his debut v India as a result, played 12 tests in the next decade as his body fell apart under the strain.

But yeah, pretty much every England seamer at some point in recent memory has tried to extract more pace out themselves, and so many have been wasted as a result.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Slipstream » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:32 pm

sussexpob wrote:Even those players that disprove the theory have in their careers been pushed through the process. Anderson was the 90mph tear away quick who spent years getting spanked around spraying it all over the wicket, and in many ways England are lucky that he ever had a career of any note, because until (by memory) he tore apart a terrible WI batting line up sometime in April at CLS in the most seamer friendly conditions you'd ever find around 2009, he was one match away from being ended as a test prospect (a lot would argue that moment passed in 06-07, many people demanded England completely move on from him after that Ashes). Broad was England's "enforcer" as once tagged by the team management, which meant banging in half trackers as quickly as possible, and ending usually in him being rubbish and turning up in later tests in the summer bowling at half pace. Bresnan was a military medium to start with, cranked it up to the mid-80s around that time, required surgery and faded into mediocrity for the rest of his international career. Tremlett famously had Shane Warne rejig his action to extract more pace, quickly got his debut v India as a result, played 12 tests in the next decade as his body fell apart under the strain.

But yeah, pretty much every England seamer at some point in recent memory has tried to extract more pace out themselves, and so many have been wasted as a result.


Think they kept on with Anderson and Broad as their ODI careers in the early days were good. They wouldn't have lasted had they played Tests only.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:18 am

Yep, I agree. Broad was someone with clear potential but for the first two years of his career averaged close to 40 in tests, and there were a lot of debates about his place. I think it was that spell in the Oval in 2009 that helped seal the Ashes that was the key moment - when it was clear that he was test class and could produce the goods.

Anderson averaged over 35 as well and often got tonked for over 5 an over until 2008-09. Given the start he had, it's amazing he's now pushed his average down to around 27. He's averaged around 24 since 2009...

It did help that England's batting was decent during that period, and we had Monty and Swann in the spin department, so a couple of quicks not pulling their weight wasn't terminal to our victory chances. Compared to now...
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:42 am

Slipstream wrote:Think they kept on with Anderson and Broad as their ODI careers in the early days were good. They wouldn't have lasted had they played Tests only.


I think Broad would have been one of those players who could have played 100 tests almost regardless of deserving it, because the team and selectors were utterly sold on the idea he was the outstanding talent of his era and would have kept picking him even if he produced average returns. I never got the feeling his career was in any form of trouble to start with, I think the struggles were mostly seen as part of his learning curve.

Broad also had a joker up his sleeve early on; his batting. One would be inclined to watch him bat now and wonder where the hell that ability went, but its easy to forget there were many established pundits going back to the start of his career who went as far as saying he had potential to be a good enough batsman to warrant specialist selection. I certainly remember lengthy conversations where even people like Atherton, who chooses his words more wisely and carefully that others, were saying from a technical level he looked a total natural and very sound for a 20 odd year old, and that the sky was the limit.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:28 am

As for Jimmy, its think more than anything he benefitted from the bad luck he had at critical points in his career. While its hard to argue that his ODI success didnt impact how many chances he got, his ODI by memory tailed off badly around that 2006-07 Ashes series too. There were doubts regardless of his talent, that his back was a serious injury concern, and certainly in that series he was pushed into a few games bowling clearly half fit. He should have never been playing really, but the press and most fans really laid into him. I remember back in the 606 days it was only me and GB who defended him and suggested England maintain picking him; I say that not to claim some amazing foresight, but simply because his swing was such a weapon that most bowlers would beg to have, England had to be sure he couldnt improve beyond doubt before terminating his career.

But as I said, I think Anderson was lucky with those back injuries. To prolong his career at any level, he needed to change his action. In those days he ran hard into the crease, jumped into his stride, and rather than allowing that force and rhythm built up in the run up to translate to pace, he checked his action by not really moving his arms until he planted his feet, then as his stride sort of pulled his body downwards he would bring his bowling arm through very quickly. Clearly he was trying to bowl quick, but his action worked against itself and probably made him slower, and is an obvious reason why he had stress fractures in the back so often. He was fighting he own natural movements.

So he changed his action to be far more natural and his arms moved much more with his delivery stride and the point of delivery was much more controlled. Had he been fit, I doubt he would have ever made that change, it was one of necessity. So in a way the threat of chronic back injuries were his way of lucking out. I think past this point he noticed the extra control gave him better results, and he stripped back the run up and started to trust bowling within himself a lot more.

And he's done that more with every passing year. He trusts accuracy and his ability to move the ball without having to produce rapid pace.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:20 pm

without having to produce rapid pace?

that's commie talk, mister
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby alfie » Sat May 01, 2021 1:33 pm

An interesting , if counterintuitive , idea that Jimmy may actually have early injuries to thank for his long career ! You may have a point there , Sussex.

As I recall (and I must also point out that I remember posting at some length in support of Jimmy on 606 , perhaps around 2008 , as I was definitely of the view that he had something , despite some rather "variable" results ) he actually started quite well in the International game : some promising early ODIs in Australia ; 5 wickets in his first Test - albeit against Zimbabwe ; and a mix of good spells and a bit of filth against a strong SA. It was quite early then - after that initial season , in fact , that the England coaches actually tried to change his action quite radically and arguably in a way that just didn't work for him - and I think it might well have been the process of trying to change it that actually led to his injury problems. Or certainly exacerbated them.
After the Ashes tour (in which I do agree he was likely played when he should not have been : they got a lot wrong on that trip !) he seemed to gradually work out his action issues : was there not a change of bowling coach around that time ? In any case I would suggest that his "rebirth" took place on that NZ tour of 2008 where England made the decision to move on from Hoggard and Harmison and put a lot of faith in Anderson and Broad : hard to argue that that wasn't a rare case of far sighted selection gold!
Wouldn't say he stopped trying to bowl fast exactly : he was still well capable of producing ninety plus when he wanted to , but probably tended to do so more in ODI than Tests , where he had indeed realized that his best use of his skills was based more on control of movement than sheer firepower. And of course this change progressed with time... Barring the odd hiccup it has been pretty much constant improvement since then ; and even though the passage of time has seen the threat of injury necessitate careful management he seems to be making up for any games lost to injury in 2004-7 with an extended "late" career.

Would be interesting to compare film of his action (extended rather than the "highlight" packages which pop up all the time to celebrate his reaching a new milestone) over the years 2003-2008 to see exactly how it developed ; but I suspect your summary is not far off .
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Slipstream » Mon May 03, 2021 2:39 pm

Anderson got his stress fracture in March 06 after coming back from India. His Lancs coach said he should go back to his original action. That was certainly going to take hundreds of overs before he could feel his normal bowling action after 3 years of changes.

The only change he has made since was down to Silverwood who changed the bowler's run ups. It has been excellent. Mark Wood and Anderson having longer run ups and Broad, a shorter run up. Anderson's run up has resulted in not running on the wicket anymore. Every Test he was always warned. Twice he was prevented from further bowling in the innings. I am sure they were surprised that Anderson's speed went up by 4/5mph.

Broad
“Jimmy lengthened his in St Lucia because he didn’t feel he had the momentum to get off the pitch. I’ve shortened mine to 16m, by at least 3-4m after conversations with Chris Silverwood, Sir Richard Hadlee, to shorten my stride pattern, help my rhythm and pace,”

Wood has bowled 96.3. I don't remember him being that fast earlier in his career.

Since then
Broad (22) 84 wickets at 20.86
Anderson (15) 49 wickets at 20.53
Wood (6) 23 wickets at 22.60
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue May 18, 2021 4:56 pm

much changed squad for NZ

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57156635

Bracey, Overton, Robinson, Stone in

The IPL boys have missed out
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue May 18, 2021 4:59 pm

Aussie bowlers are not happy that there might be some sort of suggestion that they might have had a bit of an idea that balls were getting scuffed up illegally

thank goodness for that.... I always knew they were completely unaware. I know this because they would have said something at the time if they had known
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue May 18, 2021 5:29 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:much changed squad for NZ

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57156635

Bracey, Overton, Robinson, Stone in

The IPL boys have missed out


Glad for Robbo...
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 18, 2021 5:49 pm

No spot for Livingstone.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 18, 2021 5:53 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:England's 55 man squad for the summer. I wouldn't be surprised if even given the huge selection, they pick players not in this programme over the summer.

Batsmen and wicketkeepers: Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Tom Banton (Somerset), Sam Billings (Kent), James Bracey (Gloucestershire), Rory Burns (Surrey), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Zak Crawley (Kent), Joe Denly (Kent), Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire), Laurie Evans (Sussex), Ben Foakes (Surrey), Sam Hain (Warwickshire), Will Jacks (Surrey), Keaton Jennings (Lancashire), Tom Kohler-Cadmore (Yorkshire), Dan Lawrence (Essex), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Dawid Malan (Yorkshire), Eoin Morgan (Middlesex), Ollie Pope (Surrey), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Phil Salt (Sussex), Dom Sibley (Warwickshire), James Vince (Hampshire)

Fast bowlers (including all-rounders): James Anderson (Lancashire), Jofra Archer (Sussex), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Henry Brookes (Warwickshire), Pat Brown (Worcestershire), Brydon Carse (Durham), Sam Curran (Surrey), Tom Curran (Surrey), Richard Gleeson (Lancashire), Lewis Gregory (Somerset), Tom Helm (Middlesex), Chris Jordan (Sussex), Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire), Craig Overton (Somerset), Jamie Overton (Somerset), Ollie Robinson (Sussex), Ben Stokes (Durham), Olly Stone (Warwickshire), Reece Topley (Surrey), David Willey (Yorkshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham)

Spin bowlers (including all-rounders): Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Dom Bess (Somerset), Mason Crane (Hampshire), Liam Dawson (Hampshire), Jack Leach (Somerset), Matt Parkinson (Lancashire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Amar Virdi (Surrey)




This was the squad for last summer.
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