Sachin Tendulkar

[Arthur Crabtree]

as a cricket fan i take no pleasure watching one of the best players to play during my time watching the game struggle in the way he has this year

I'm not sure if I entirely feel the same thing. I can see that Tendulkar means more to an India fan that he could to me. If I can feel huskily lyrical about Graham Thorpe, then I can see that an Indian fan might not want to let Tendulkar go. or at least might want to make it matter. But that isn't the job of the selectors.

To me, SRT was one of a few seemingly implacable batters of the late nineties and the noughties. A wave of batters who seemingly couldn't be removed. I don't think that was down to our attack, we had a good attack. I watched a few: Inzamam, Lara, Waugh, Yousuf, Dravid, Tendulkar who were so good that they seemed to eradicate chance. To me, Tendulkar was one of this group. In my opinion, he stands out because he was a product of a country that plainly loved him, and that environment had enough clout to make that matter.

All those batters i named had to move on. I don't even think this is an issue yet. Could you justify Tendulkar being picked in this series? Probably. Can you justify him playing in the next? Maybe not. Possibly he'll retire and, make this a non issue.

[rich1uk]

yeah because teams should be picked because of what fans are saying on twitter ...

[Arthur Crabtree]

From what i read on message boards, it might be that there are problems in Indian cricket beyond the available talent. It makes me wonder if they have people in place who can pick the best players, and back them, in the face of the cross buffeting of different interests. i don't know enough to say if that's true. Maybe the notion of undroppable players suggests it is?

[shankycricket]

I always thought you were a big SRT fan, Shanky.

To me, the issue seems more about whether he is droppable, rather whether he should be dropped. If someone were to argue that looking at his game, there is reason to hope that he will find better form, then ok. But if I see people arguing that he can't be dropped because of who he is and who he was, then that's is plainly strange.

Players normally have a choice. They can retire at the right time, just before the inevitable decline. Or they can find themselves overtaken by new players coming through. There may be a grey area, and I'm sympathetic if this is that grey area. But if a team is willing to weaken itself rather than move on a former great (cf Steve Waugh) then it isn't really what we think of as a national team anymore.

I'm not saying that is what is happening. It may be that Tendulkar is the best that India have now, and in the short term. But the fact that many suggest he doesn't need to be worth his place seems to me, pious nonsense.

Oh, I still very much am! That doesn't mean that I can't accept reality though unlike some of his other fans. I defended him after the NZ series saying that he might be rusty rather than "late on the ball". This series, however, has confirmed that the latter is perhaps true. He is struggling big time and honestly, I can't see the best batsman that I've watched and one of my childhood heroes struggling any more. It'd be a shame if he is to endure any more terrible series. If he plays on till the SA tour, there is a chance that his average could fall below 50, which would be a real disappointment for me. I think its in the best interests of SRT as well as the team to retire now. Sadly, some of his fans (most noticeably a certain poster on this forum) seem to be extrapolating calls for his retirement into something which is disrespectful towards him and tend to rather needlessly question the cricketing qualifications of those calling for his retirement. Sorry, it isn't. In fact, I'm sure most who are calling for his retirement right now are the ones who actually care about him.

He still very much has the desire to fight it out and it did show in the first innings when he was clearly trying but its just not happening for him.

[shankycricket]

yeah because teams should be picked because of what fans are saying on twitter ...

So what is the logic to keep selecting non performing "experienced" players? The results speak for themselves. The fact is youngsters are performing, the seniors aren't. And the seniors seem to be on a terminal decline. How exactly is sticking to a bunch of non performing "experienced" players helping the team?

[rich1uk]

yeah because teams should be picked because of what fans are saying on twitter ...

So what is the logic to keep selecting non performing "experienced" players? The results speak for themselves. The fact is youngsters are performing, the seniors aren't. And the seniors seem to be on a terminal decline. How exactly is sticking to a bunch of non performing "experienced" players helping the team?

who says they are all on terminal decline ?

the logic is that the chances of finding a brand new top 7 all basically at the same time is less likely than the chances of gambhir and dhoni recovering their form

and the chances of finding a top 7 all at the same time making the jump to test cricket without having anyone around them to provide that experience is also not a good idea

history shows that people take time to adjust to test cricket and regardless of domestic success that not everyone makes it , so again logic would suggest that having basically your whole team replaced at the same time aint gonna work

[Arthur Crabtree]

Oh, I still very much am! That doesn't mean that I can't accept reality though unlike some of his other fans. I defended him after the NZ series saying that he might be rusty rather than "late on the ball". This series, however, has confirmed that the latter is perhaps true. He is struggling big time and honestly, I can't see the best batsman that I've watched and one of my childhood heroes struggling any more. It'd be a shame if he is to endure any more terrible series. If he plays on till the SA tour, there is a chance that his average could fall below 50, which would be a real disappointment for me. I think its in the best interests of SRT as well as the team to retire now.

He still very much has the desire to fight it out and it did show in the first innings when he was clearly trying but its just not happening for him.

Well that's quite touchingly explained. True that all those greats that Tendulkar has been compared to have suffered that tailing off of the average. There's some sense in accommodating that when you see a player at his peak.

I prefer players to retire unannounced. Say good bye once it is all over, rather than take their legacy on the road. Maybe SRT will do the former.

[shankycricket]

Gambhir hasn't scored a Test hundred for 3 years now. That can't even be reliably described as poor "form".

I am still not able to come to terms with the concept of "providing experience". The only way a youngster can gain experience is by playing test cricket himself. No one can provide him that experience. Players should be picked on the basis of their own performances and not because they "provide experience" to others. It could be argued that the non performance of the seniors is just adding pressure on the youngsters. What India need to do is to chop the dead wood once and for all and start afresh. Build a team from the scratch. Trust me, there's more than enough talent out there. The lack of oppurtunities is the problem. Pick a bunch of youngsters and back them to the hilt. Always found the comment calling for Kohli's head quite ridiculous anyway. Better to lose with youngsters gaining experience rather than with struggling stars.

[Arthur Crabtree]

the logic is that the chances of finding a brand new top 7 all basically at the same time is less likely than the chances of gambhir and dhoni recovering their form

and the chances of finding a top 7 all at the same time making the jump to test cricket without having anyone around them to provide that experience is also not a good idea

history shows that people take time to adjust to test cricket and regardless of domestic success that not everyone makes it , so again logic would suggest that having basically your whole team replaced at the same time aint gonna work

That's true, and it may mean that India haven't managed things well. Maybe their selectors have been under pressure which made that difficult. it's a struggle to adapt, which is why new players should be given a good chance. But it could be counterproductive to keep the greats in the team, especially if they aren't scoring runs. New players often do surprise you. They have qualities that you can't see.

The great India batters held back a generation of potential players. Could one or two of these not be experienced replacements?

I remember Vaughan taking over from Hussain as England captain, and wondering how he would manage this huge challenge.

[shankycricket]

From what i read on message boards, it might be that there are problems in Indian cricket beyond the available talent. It makes me wonder if they have people in place who can pick the best players, and back them, in the face of the cross buffeting of different interests. i don't know enough to say if that's true. Maybe the notion of undroppable players suggests it is?

I think you are quite right, to be honest.

[rich1uk]

i made a comment the other day about transition planning and how that sits alongside rotation and that allowing a team to grow old together as australia maybe did and as india have done is not a good thing.

it was fairly obvious that dravid, vvs and srt were gonna need to be replaced at some point , it hasn't helped that the players expected to be the experienced core to help bed in the players replacing those three have all hit a bad run of form as well tho.

i'm still a believer however in the concept that its easier to bring new players into a team when there are experienced players around them and you can put too much pressure on youngsters expecting them to make the transition to test cricket without having that experience there. the issue of experience that shanks seems to find tedious is not just about the performance of the experienced players themselves but how that experience helps the new players and actually makes the new players better as well.

whether the indian selectors have backed themselves into a corner i dont know.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Maybe players need to come into a stable team, more than a team with experienced players?

[rich1uk]

Maybe players need to come into a stable team, more than a team with experienced players?

yeah maybe that is a better way than just saying experience but is still kinda what i have been saying

[meninblue]

I'm not sure if I entirely feel the same thing. I can see that Tendulkar means more to an India fan that he could to me. If I can feel huskily lyrical about Graham Thorpe, then I can see that an Indian fan might not want to let Tendulkar go. or at least might want to make it matter. But that isn't the job of the selectors.

To me, SRT was one of a few seemingly implacable batters of the late nineties and the noughties. A wave of batters who seemingly couldn't be removed. I don't think that was down to our attack, we had a good attack. I watched a few: Inzamam, Lara, Waugh, Yousuf, Dravid, Tendulkar who were so good that they seemed to eradicate chance. To me, Tendulkar was one of this group. In my opinion, he stands out because he was a product of a country that plainly loved him, and that environment had enough clout to make that matter.

All those batters i named had to move on. I don't even think this is an issue yet. Could you justify Tendulkar being picked in this series? Probably. Can you justify him playing in the next? Maybe not. Possibly he'll retire and, make this a non issue.

Like the England selectors won't drop Cook even after 5 bad series or one bad year because they have identified his quality and abilities with bat, the Indian selectors won't drop Sachin. Also, he is having some good series sandwiched between some bad. It's not that he is going through only bad series and is not showing any form at all. One just has to see his averages for past 20 series to come to a fair conclusion. His averages in last 20 series in reverse order : 19,21,36,44,34,82,32,134,78,71,132,66,69,52,16,0,71,70,38,127 . Would you have dropped him on the basis of those averages alone. I wouldn't drop a core player of the team for that performances, and surely not someone like Sachin considering how important he is to the team in many other aspects as well.

[rich1uk]

theres a huge difference tho adi

cook is 28 , there is every expectation that if he goes a couple of series without scoring that its just a slump, he is only just entering his prime as a batsman

tendulkar is 39 , history suggests that its not going to get better for him at that age

its not just that hes not been scoring runs either , its the manner of his dimissals and how he has looked scoring what runs he has