Greatest ODI XI of all-time

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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Making_Splinters » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:05 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:
Albondiga wrote:"The greats of an era would be greats in any era"

I believe any ODI side or any other longer form of the game ( I don't include 20/20 because I don't see it as a game for professionals ) should contain BRADMAN SOBERS HOBBS S F BARNES WARNE AKRAM MARSHALL.


It does not matter if they have not played ODI's as we know them now as they would soon adapt.


I dont think you can argue that players "would adapt" to a format they never played.


Indeed. Maybe we should change the debate to "best long distance runners of all time"......

In the hypothetical world of a 4 x 10,000m relay, my squad would be thus....

Carl Lewis
Linford Christie
Usain Bolt
Asafa Powell


I would have picked Mo Farah, Seb Coe or Garesallase, but I dont think they were anywhere near as quick as those boys.


Sorry, Sussex, but that's a rather childish post.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby sussexpob » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:13 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:
Albondiga wrote:"The greats of an era would be greats in any era"

I believe any ODI side or any other longer form of the game ( I don't include 20/20 because I don't see it as a game for professionals ) should contain BRADMAN SOBERS HOBBS S F BARNES WARNE AKRAM MARSHALL.


It does not matter if they have not played ODI's as we know them now as they would soon adapt.


I dont think you can argue that players "would adapt" to a format they never played.


Indeed. Maybe we should change the debate to "best long distance runners of all time"......

In the hypothetical world of a 4 x 10,000m relay, my squad would be thus....

Carl Lewis
Linford Christie
Usain Bolt
Asafa Powell


I would have picked Mo Farah, Seb Coe or Garesallase, but I dont think they were anywhere near as quick as those boys.


Sorry, Sussex, but that's a rather childish post.


Intentionally so for satirical purposes. Im sorry, but the time for serious debate ended when people seriously started to mention players who never played ODI's....
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Making_Splinters » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:26 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Intentionally so for satirical purposes. Im sorry, but the time for serious debate ended when people seriously started to mention players who never played ODI's....


In terms of merit, it's no more flawed than the entire idea of compiling a team of players from different generations and calling it the "greatest of all time". After all, Albert Trott cleared the Lord's Pavilion in 1899, to my knowledge I don't think anyone has managed it since.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby KipperJohn » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:03 am

It should be remembered that Albondiga played for and toured with the MCC and Cross Arrows. It doesn't take many brain cells to work out from his posts that he played alongside, against, and mixed with many of the greats of his playing generation.

He is not relying on 'old footage' but actual experience of those times and comparing it with present.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:37 am

KipperJohn wrote:It should be remembered that Albondiga played for and toured with the MCC and Cross Arrows. It doesn't take many brain cells to work out from his posts that he played alongside, against, and mixed with many of the greats of his playing generation.

He is not relying on 'old footage' but actual experience of those times and comparing it with present.


Sidney Barnes retired from tests 101 years ago, and was in the same team as Jack Hobbs....unless he is the Highlander, I very much doubt he saw them play tests
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby bigfluffylemon » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:34 am

sussexpob wrote:
Sidney Barnes played in an era where no Australia who played more than 3 matches averaged over 40. Poor pitches, no helmets and poor batting quality seem to have twisted the statistics from this era.... a list of pre-WWI bowlers as follows:

GA Lohmann..... 112 wickets at 10....
J Ferris.... 61 wickets at 12
W Barnes....51 wickets at 15
CTB Turner...101 wickets at 16
R Briggs... 118 wickets at 16
R Peel...101 wickets at 17
R SPotforth... 68 wickets at 18
C Blythe...100 wickets at 18


The average wicket in these days dropped nearly 10 runs per wicket less, so bowling in Sidney Barnes day was like shooting fish in a barrel compared to nowadays. If Kallis isnt as good as Sobers because of X,Y and Z, for the same reason we should ignore Sidney Barnes in any debate.


Unless you were bowling at, say, Jack Hobbs, or Victor Trumper (whose test average was just shy of 40, and FC average 44.5 with over 40 centuries). There were great batsmen around then too.

Of course it's no more than a thought exercise to compare batsmen across eras, but doing it by stats is misleading as they obviously don't tell the whole story, as you point out. All you can really go on is how they performed against the best of their era, and the opinions of those who saw them play and played against them.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:14 am

Unless you were bowling at, say, Jack Hobbs, or Victor Trumper (whose test average was just shy of 40, and FC average 44.5 with over 40 centuries). There were great batsmen around then too.


If the mark of a great batsman is to average 39, then what does that say about the contemporary conditions they were playing in and its knock on effect on bowling averages (which are generally incredibly low)? An Average of 39 would barely have you getting cricket in most good test teams nowadays, and I would like to see Dale Steyn's average had the best batsman of his era been so inclined.

Of course it's no more than a thought exercise to compare batsmen across eras, but doing it by stats is misleading as they obviously don't tell the whole story, as you point out. All you can really go on is how they performed against the best of their era, and the opinions of those who saw them play and played against them.


Memory can be misleading, because as time goes on, individual memories are often replaced by blanket emotional states that filter negative emotions out naturally. When we are talking about people who saw these guys then, its is also very likely that these opinions are not based on true memories, but of vague nostalgia that is biased and ignores all the factors.

A good indicator of this is the wilful ignorance of attributing certain negative factors to some eras, but not to others. Dale Steyn could never be the greatest because the discussion will always focus on actual memory, of mitigating circumstances that are fighting against a biased emotional state. I think the mention of Sidney Barnes in the opposite is a good example.... while the argument for modern batsman is "helmets, covered pitches, flat decks, etc", in an era where someone took100 wickets at an average of 10, there is never a cross over of what conditions existed then. It cant be ignored, but its not acknowledged.... cricket then was proper seems to be the opinion, not played on pitches that would probably be resulting in called off games or pitch inspector issues now. I think most bowlers would do much better in that era, and if you were to attribute some kind of mathematic formula to assess runs to wicket average across the board, you might find that Barnes ends up with a factored average that is no better than a lot of players. And lets be straight, no one on this board seen the guy play test cricket, I refuse to acknowledge that anyone can have any basis for mentioning him on anything other than paper stats without further comparative or indepth analysis. Maybe in 100 years time we might be stumbling on names like Vinod Kambli and supplanting a fake legacy for him?
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:29 am

Victorian era Test stats seem to demand to be viewed separately from those thereafter. But post the era of Lohmann, Barnes and Spofforth, stats are fairly consistent. Apart from Bradman.

Steyn is considered an all time great. Admittedly, probably the only bowler from this era who is. But bowlers from recent times, are rated very highly against history. It's fairly standard to rate Warne and (with the usual reservation) Murali as the greatest ever spinners. 1976- 2000 is seen as a golden age of pace bowling. The Wisden cricketers of the century were mostly from the back end of that period.

Regarding Kambli, these greats of the past aren't rediscovered through their stats, they are constantly kept alive in an ongoing pantheon.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Making_Splinters » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:31 pm

To directly compare the likes of Lohmann and Steyn is nonsense, heck even comparing the bowlers of the 80s to current players is an effort reserved solely for the foolhardy.

Greatness is a measure of a player against his peers, anything else is meaningless. Had there been 10 players averaging over 80 when the Don was playing he'd be nothing more than an interesting footnote in history.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Gingerfinch » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:41 pm

I's always fun to compare different era's, though you're right, it's nigh on impossible to.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Albondiga » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:57 am

Sussex

I think you could start a fight in an empty room. The only point I'm trying to make is that present day cricketers are not necessarily better then yesteryear's.

Warner is a good batsman --- not great but certainly good and he scores his runs at a rapid rate.

Gilbert Jessop scored his runs at a rapid rate and in the days when you had to hit the ball into the crowd to score four and out of the ground to get six. He never played a ODI in his life but was he not a suitable alternative to someone like Warner?

As for your example about Carl Lewis and Usain Bolt I despair.

Mohammed Ali was probably the greatest boxer ever. Would he not have adapted had bouts been compulsory stopped on completion of five rounds rather than fifteen ??

The greats of an era would be great in any era.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Gingerfinch » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:02 am

To be fair, most boxing experts I know, well they think they're experts :-) don't rate Ali as the best boxer ever but your argument is right, as most say Sugar Ray Robinson.

I do think modern day Cricketers are in general better than ones from the early 20th century, though Bradman stands alone, well imo.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Gingerfinch » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:02 am

To be fair, most boxing experts I know, well they think they're experts :-) don't rate Ali as the best boxer ever but your argument is right, as most say Sugar Ray Robinson.

I do think modern day Cricketers are in general better than ones from the early 20th century, though Bradman stands alone, well imo.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby Albondiga » Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:00 pm

Gingerfinch

I think you , Making Splinter and Kipper John understood the point I was trying to make. I did have had the privilege of playing with and against some very good International players albeit mostly in their later years Barry Richards,

Aravinda De Silva and Tom Graveney being the best of the Batsmen and Jeff Thomson the best of the bowlers. They all played a different game to the one I did.

I mentioned Mohammed ALI and would not argue the point you made about Sugar Ray Robinson although he didn't lose his best three years not being allowed to fight. Some would say that Jimmy Wilde was the best as he would regularly

KO men twice his weight and with a much superior reach three times A NIGHT; Again the point is made because they all fought in different eras.
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Re: Greatest ODI XI of all-time

Postby KipperJohn » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:22 pm

It's interesting that no Englishman really gets in anywhere.

However, I'll be a bit controversial and say that whilst Warne or Murali would probably get in as the spinner, purely on their records, they might well go for a few. But if you want accuracy and perhaps someone to fire it in then look no further than a certain D. L. Underwood. He'd be brilliant in the middle overs and a wicket taking threat.
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