England end KP's international career.

[m@tt]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cr ... 997992.ece

Very interesting article by Atherton regarding the meeting, referring to the context in which Prior said "#### Flower" - apparently KP kept having a go, so Prior said it in a 'stop talking about Flower, this is our team and we need to take responsibility' manner rather in a derogatory-to-Flower way.

Stuff at the end praising Osborne's 'neo-liberalism' article is a load of nonsense though.

[Aidan11]

For some reason when I read that piece by Atherton I thought back to when he was captain and was unable to handle the troublesome Phil Tuffnell.

[sussexpob]

For some reason when I read that piece by Atherton I thought back to when he was captain and was unable to handle the troublesome Phil Tuffnell.

For me personally, I found it a little bit overbearing to have him quote rubbish about loyalty, honour and integrity when, in 1994, he let down the whole of his country, not just his team mates, with possibly one of the most memorable and embarrassing moments in English sporting history. He would probably do well to notice that, had he applied the same standard to himself, he would probably not have had much of a career past that test.

But much of what Atherton spouts is utter rubbish, just like his country's record when he was captain, and just like his abhorrent batting record.

[Durhamfootman]

For some reason when I read that piece by Atherton I thought back to when he was captain and was unable to handle the troublesome Phil Tuffnell.

For me personally, I found it a little bit overbearing to have him quote rubbish about loyalty, honour and integrity when, in 1994, he let down the whole of his country, not just his team mates, with possibly one of the most memorable and embarrassing moments in English sporting history. He would probably do well to notice that, had he applied the same standard to himself, he would probably not have had much of a career past that test.

I presume you mean him not walking, sp?

I also seem to remember another incident involving honour, integrity and a pocket full of grit!

[KipperJohn]

What is the point of all these snippets of what was alleged to have been said in a meeting or wherever - it takes you nowhere and dodges serious debate about how the ECB have approached the whole matter of England's selection, preparation and performance on this tour?

It's the performance, or lack of it, that should be at the forefront of the ECB's judgements, not petty arguments between players, coaches etc.

For the avoidance of any doubt it is petty, when set against the background of huge under-performance (we were totally outplayed in case anyone's forgotten), one senior player going home and the other retiring having been savaged by a side which, frankly, isn't that good.

Serious questions have been studiously avoided and one other senior player has been shipped out for confidential reasons which will probably never be truly told.

The tour was a shambles and the aftermath has been equally poorly managed.

I am so disappointed given how well England have performed in general terms over the last few years - these are sad times and one can only hope that the ECB have got it right. I won't be crowing , for KP or anyone else, if they haven't.

[D/L]

Not for the first time, your comments are so full of wild assumptions and strange extrapolations, that it is hardly worth a reply.

No explanation for censoring some of Tredwell's words then?

I dont think the expectation that a manager "manages" people is a wild assumption. Isnt that the core responsibility of their job?

As for Tredwell being "censored", I merely picked the parts that I felt were relevant to my argument. I hardly think that the extra line makes any difference whatsoever.

Some would say you seemed to pick the part that supported your argument and omitted the part that may have detracted from it. It is an old trick.

[D/L]

For some reason when I read that piece by Atherton I thought back to when he was captain and was unable to handle the troublesome Phil Tuffnell.

For me personally, I found it a little bit overbearing to have him quote rubbish about loyalty, honour and integrity when, in 1994, he let down the whole of his country, not just his team mates, with possibly one of the most memorable and embarrassing moments in English sporting history. He would probably do well to notice that, had he applied the same standard to himself, he would probably not have had much of a career past that test.

But much of what Atherton spouts is utter rubbish, just like his country's record when he was captain, and just like his abhorrent batting record.

We’ll always get invective from some quarters against anyone who dares to portray events in a light that detracts from a sense of all the terrible wrongs done to Pietersen.

Whatever Atherton may have done a long time ago, he’s entitled to his opinion and is probably a little better informed than most of us.

His version of events is entirely credible.

[mikesiva]

I am amused at the way English journalists have changed their tune on Petersen and Natal. When Petersen was the media darling the English story was that Natal practised a quota system that discriminated against white players and drove Petersen and drove him to England. Now the story is that the behaviour of Petersen proved to be not worth the bother of teams like Natal.

[D/L]

I have to say I've not read anything about the behaviour of a very young Pietersen at Natal. It would be good to be provided with a link.

Is it not possible then that a player may be the victim of injustice and also be, or later develop into, a rather unsavoury character?

[Durhamfootman]

or later develop into, a rather unsavoury character?

I think you must be mellowing towards Pietersen, DL. 'Unsavoury character' sounds a lot softer than 'corrosive influence'

Give it another week and you'll be wanting him to sign for Yorkshire

I'm trying to keep a straight face, but I can't manage it, sadly

[Aidan11]

It still amazes me how the new coach won't be able to pick one of the best players we have.

In football Alf Ramsey was ready to walk out of the middle of the 1966 World Cup tournament because the FA wanted him to drop Nobby Stiles who had caused controversy for one of his "biting" tackles in the previous game.

I'd like to think the new coach would say "I'll pick who I like". Sadly the ECB like Yes Men. *cough* Ashley Giles *cough*.

[m@tt]

Like you D/L, I've never read any such thing. That part of his life isn't particularly well documented, probably deliberately on his part.

I think it's highly likely that KP over-reacted and was impatient. Injustice is a strong word to use regarding the selection of an off-spinner who was nothing special, even if he did return from Cannock a much-improved batsman.

I'm not sure I'd call him an "unsavoury character". Many will speak of his politeness and courteousness. Many of his mishaps have been done with the best of intentions, but also with clumsiness and heavy-handedness. With Moores, he tried to go down the right paths and address failings of the coaching set-up and wanted to improve the team. The ECB then leaked it to the media and hung him out to dry. He has never looked kindly on what he perceives to be a lack of effort - he does pride himself on his work ethic and expects the same from others - as Samit Patel found out! In these Ashes, he was trying to address the headmaster approach of Flower because he felt it was holding the team back. But as I said - clumsiness and heavy-handedness have been his downfall. He makes the mistake of expecting everyone to agree with him, be it criticising coaching methods or asking to move County. However I would say that a poor characteristic of his is that he tends to hold grudges - he has never forgiven the ECB for the captaincy shambles and spent too much of last year trying to call their bluff, trying to beat them. Last year he built up a silly grudge with Strauss which led to text-gate, which certainly was an unsavoury incident, and his grudge against Flower has been simmering for a while now.

[greyblazer]

http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-news ... toff/97845

[andy]

il be honest, although KP is a very good player, i have no problem with them axing him..no one is bigger than the team and its time for KP to go...

HOWEVER

The ECB need to come out and say why they have done it now, and not earlier down the line, when he was appearing to be more destructive within the camp..

[Making_Splinters]

At the end of the day, I think all people want is a detailed explination of what really went on.