Dhoni retires from tests

[meninblue]

I hope Virat will no more run on ground showing middle finger to crowd like once he did when just as a player. Captaincy wise i do not mind a silent captain or a chit chat type captain. The team selection , strategy, getting 90 over in day with efficiency, observing and learning opposition players weaknesses and tweaking the odd fielding fielder or two accordingly, passing the message to player is what matters. If they manage all this and other captaincy tasks then i don't mind they are silent type or chit chat types.
But Virat has to improve his head first by trying to keep it cool. Otherwise he will mess it for himself and irritate others whom he is handling. The other thing we have to see is how overseas defeats affect him. Whether it will affect his batting or not. Captaincy is not easy, but more tough. Some cricketers have better average as captains than when they were non-captains, but the teams performance without his captaincy and with his captaincy also matters not just individual one. If we cannot find world class bowlers like Kapil or ZAK then he is also going to be in trouble when overseas test series are concerned. We saw how captaincy change did not make any difference whatsoever in results when he was captaining the team in the first test of this series. Both a good captain and a good team are important. Single strong point won't help. So considering many aspects of this game and duties he has now, it is easy to say he is good captain or bad without him playing more in various conditions. Let us see how he handles. All the best.

[Dr Cricket]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india win everything especially abroad.

[Dr Cricket]

here the actual article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 25295.html

[meninblue]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

[meninblue]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india win everything especially abroad.

I think a lot of Chappell talk regarding Indian cricket started after Greg got India's coaching. Wasn't it first positive when Greg was coach and then once he made way it started being more negative later after we opted for Gary.

Regarding coach, now we will have to wait and see. Whether Virat will opt to work with Duncan or let the management know that other coach is required. coach change might also happen post World Cup. Whoever the coach and captain are, i wish they both have a good understanding and are willing to take each others worthy strategy, plans, discussions etc.

[Making_Splinters]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

Id have to disagree with Adi here. Being an international captain, at least on field, is not a particularly difficult job. Before any match countless hours of video of the opposition players are gone over, any technical weakness are identified and plans are drawn up to exploit them. Add into this that you usually ahve very experianced bowlers who can adapt their line and length subitly without the need to be told to.

Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it. It's evident that a fair few international captains simply can't do this. Cook in particular looks completely clueless when the plans don't work. In the last test it took Dhoni too long to realise that India weren't going to get anywhere bowling short to Haddin, and that the pitch needed bowlers to bowl fuller. By the time he changed it, Haddin had already plundered his runs and had his eye in.

At club level, you often know very little about the opposition, well at least at club level in England, and captaincy is very much done over to over as you obseve the batsmen.

[Dr Cricket]

Coaches will stay the same.
the players like Fletcher as a coach and they even helped fletcher by bring Shastri in so he can be the selector and the guy that does all the strategy/ work with the captain and fletcher can continue to work with the players with their batting and bowling techniques.
Fletcher is very good coach but probably not that great in knowing indian domestic players or strategy right now.
But still a very good coach so make sense to have a director of Cricket in Shastri.

[Dr Cricket]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

Id have to disagree with Adi here. Being an international captain, at least on field, is not a particularly difficult job. Before any match countless hours of video of the opposition players are gone over, any technical weakness are identified and plans are drawn up to exploit them. Add into this that you usually ahve very experianced bowlers who can adapt their line and length subitly without the need to be told to.

Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it. It's evident that a fair few international captains simply can't do this. Cook in particular looks completely clueless when the plans don't work. In the last test it took Dhoni too long to realise that India weren't going to get anywhere bowling short to Haddin, and that the pitch needed bowlers to bowl fuller. By the time he changed it, Haddin had already plundered his runs and had his eye in.

At club level, you often know very little about the opposition, well at least at club level in England, and captaincy is very much done over to over as you obseve the batsmen.

But that is countered by the fact that international cricket has far more media scrutiny which makes captaining far more difficult especially if the media start getting to your head and winning and losing matter more.
In club cricket it is likely the captain stop being captain after the game but international captains have to keep on thinking all day especially in long test tours.

[Making_Splinters]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

Id have to disagree with Adi here. Being an international captain, at least on field, is not a particularly difficult job. Before any match countless hours of video of the opposition players are gone over, any technical weakness are identified and plans are drawn up to exploit them. Add into this that you usually ahve very experianced bowlers who can adapt their line and length subitly without the need to be told to.

Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it. It's evident that a fair few international captains simply can't do this. Cook in particular looks completely clueless when the plans don't work. In the last test it took Dhoni too long to realise that India weren't going to get anywhere bowling short to Haddin, and that the pitch needed bowlers to bowl fuller. By the time he changed it, Haddin had already plundered his runs and had his eye in.

At club level, you often know very little about the opposition, well at least at club level in England, and captaincy is very much done over to over as you obseve the batsmen.

But that is countered by the fact that international cricket has far more media scrutiny which makes captaining far more difficult especially if the media start getting to your head and winning and losing matter more.
In club cricket it is likely the captain stop being captain after the game but international captains have to keep on thinking all day especially in long test tours.

While nothing to do with on field captaincy, I would agree that dealing with the media is the most difficult part of an international captains role.

[meninblue]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

Id have to disagree with Adi here. Being an international captain, at least on field, is not a particularly difficult job. Before any match countless hours of video of the opposition players are gone over, any technical weakness are identified and plans are drawn up to exploit them. Add into this that you usually ahve very experianced bowlers who can adapt their line and length subitly without the need to be told to.

Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it. It's evident that a fair few international captains simply can't do this. Cook in particular looks completely clueless when the plans don't work. In the last test it took Dhoni too long to realise that India weren't going to get anywhere bowling short to Haddin, and that the pitch needed bowlers to bowl fuller. By the time he changed it, Haddin had already plundered his runs and had his eye in.

At club level, you often know very little about the opposition, well at least at club level in England, and captaincy is very much done over to over as you obseve the batsmen.

You said in last post that captain has to motivate and tell advise to bowlers frequently. And now in this post "Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it." So does that not means international captaincy also involves thinking and being added responsibilities. And a lot of captains have looked clueless when things dont go well, not just Cook. What smith did in the big Ajinkya-Virat partnership, or Cronje during Azhar-Sachin, Pnting during Rahul-Sachin, Rahul-VVS and many other examples. When the opponents are set other captains have also failed to avoid huge partnerships. Cricketer without captaincy is more responsibility than cricketer without captaincy, imo. Also, see how tough Dhoni is finding to captain, how tough Virat found, how tough Cook,KP and others found to captain. It needs to be very lucky to have good team and a good player to make captaincy look easy. Not many ocassions like that nowadays.

[rich1uk]

no captain can avoid a big partnership adi , sometimes the batsmen are just too good on the day

its what they do during the big partnerships, how long they stick to plans that clearly aren't working and their body language on the field that M-S is talking about

if you take cook as an example its amazing over the last few years how badly we have bowled for a whole session and nothing tactical is done , no change to whatever the bowling plans were , then after a break when hes had the chance to talk it over in the dressing room all of a sudden lines and lengths change , picking out isolated examples means nothing , but when someone does it time and time again you know theres a problem

[meninblue]

no captain can avoid a big partnership adi , sometimes the batsmen are just too good on the day

its what they do during the big partnerships, how long they stick to plans that clearly aren't working and their body language on the field that M-S is talking about

if you take cook as an example its amazing over the last few years how badly we have bowled for a whole session and nothing tactical is done , no change to whatever the bowling plans were , then after a break when hes had the chance to talk it over in the dressing room all of a sudden lines and lengths change , picking out isolated examples means nothing , but when someone does it time and time again you know theres a problem

That is what i am also saying.Captaincy is tough. But according to MS it is not difficult. I am not saying Cook or other captains which i mentioned were good captain or bad, i said a captain has to do a lot for example in partnerships and many good captains too have found it tough to handle. So that (partnerships) are one aspect where captaincy is tested and hence tough. There are many other aspects which make it tough. I agree that captain has to do a lot in tactical changes, bowling plans, motivation etc. Which when gets combined with own performance pressure become more tougher game. What i am disagreeing is captaincy is easy.

[Making_Splinters]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

Id have to disagree with Adi here. Being an international captain, at least on field, is not a particularly difficult job. Before any match countless hours of video of the opposition players are gone over, any technical weakness are identified and plans are drawn up to exploit them. Add into this that you usually ahve very experianced bowlers who can adapt their line and length subitly without the need to be told to.

Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it. It's evident that a fair few international captains simply can't do this. Cook in particular looks completely clueless when the plans don't work. In the last test it took Dhoni too long to realise that India weren't going to get anywhere bowling short to Haddin, and that the pitch needed bowlers to bowl fuller. By the time he changed it, Haddin had already plundered his runs and had his eye in.

At club level, you often know very little about the opposition, well at least at club level in England, and captaincy is very much done over to over as you obseve the batsmen.

You said in last post that captain has to motivate and tell advise to bowlers frequently. And now in this post "Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it." So does that not means international captaincy also involves thinking and being added responsibilities. And a lot of captains have looked clueless when things dont go well, not just Cook. What smith did in the big Ajinkya-Virat partnership, or Cronje during Azhar-Sachin, Pnting during Rahul-Sachin, Rahul-VVS and many other examples. When the opponents are set other captains have also failed to avoid huge partnerships. Cricketer without captaincy is more responsibility than cricketer without captaincy, imo. Also, see how tough Dhoni is finding to captain, how tough Virat found, how tough Cook,KP and others found to captain. It needs to be very lucky to have good team and a good player to make captaincy look easy. Not many ocassions like that nowadays.

I wouldn't say it is particularly challenging to work out it is a good idea to provide support to a bowler who is struggling.

Smith adapted his fields throughout the partnership. Cook won't do that, he'll just stick with what he has been told to do. Dhoni should have worked out a bit quicker that bowling short to Hadding was a terrible idea. It's not always a Captian's fault, there was nothing that Dhoni could do about Yadav bowling rank long hops and wide outside off to Warner at the start of the second innings.

At international level captains do not have to come up with a grand statergy, all they have to do is work out when it is time to switch from plan A to plan B to plan C. The true test of a captain is when every preplanned idea isn't working, and there are not a lot of modern captains who can change the course of the game when it's all going wrong.

[meninblue]

Good point Adi.
Overseas defeat certainty affected Dhoni before 2011 he was a good captain, but the 2011 england series changed him and he was never the same again.
Does anyone remember this article.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 10271.html
how times change now with Chappell constantly attacking Dhoni and wanting him removed from test captain.
Agree with chappell now though, but shows how tough captaining a team is and it is naive to think a change of captain will make india will everything especially abroad.

Captaincy is tough. Even if they given just role of captaincy to me in club matches that i play, i will certainly feel more burdened even as a specialist batsmen. From my knowledge there are too many things a captain has to do during fielding innings even in a club match. Actually, even a fielder is well occupied to do lot during a fielding innings. Luckily i just have to clap and appreciate the fielder and do Hi5 when wicket falls and do fielding on next devliveries Those who feel captaincy is piece of cake should better try not to eat it. It is tough job, don't get overconfident or complacent once it is handed over.

Id have to disagree with Adi here. Being an international captain, at least on field, is not a particularly difficult job. Before any match countless hours of video of the opposition players are gone over, any technical weakness are identified and plans are drawn up to exploit them. Add into this that you usually ahve very experianced bowlers who can adapt their line and length subitly without the need to be told to.

Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it. It's evident that a fair few international captains simply can't do this. Cook in particular looks completely clueless when the plans don't work. In the last test it took Dhoni too long to realise that India weren't going to get anywhere bowling short to Haddin, and that the pitch needed bowlers to bowl fuller. By the time he changed it, Haddin had already plundered his runs and had his eye in.

At club level, you often know very little about the opposition, well at least at club level in England, and captaincy is very much done over to over as you obseve the batsmen.

You said in last post that captain has to motivate and tell advise to bowlers frequently. And now in this post "Where the challenge in international cricket is, is deciding when a plan is not working and thinking on your feet to try and change it." So does that not means international captaincy also involves thinking and being added responsibilities. And a lot of captains have looked clueless when things dont go well, not just Cook. What smith did in the big Ajinkya-Virat partnership, or Cronje during Azhar-Sachin, Pnting during Rahul-Sachin, Rahul-VVS and many other examples. When the opponents are set other captains have also failed to avoid huge partnerships. Cricketer without captaincy is more responsibility than cricketer without captaincy, imo. Also, see how tough Dhoni is finding to captain, how tough Virat found, how tough Cook,KP and others found to captain. It needs to be very lucky to have good team and a good player to make captaincy look easy. Not many ocassions like that nowadays.

I wouldn't say it is particularly challenging to work out it is a good idea to provide support to a bowler who is struggling.

Smith adapted his fields throughout the partnership. Cook won't do that, he'll just stick with what he has been told to do. Dhoni should have worked out a bit quicker that bowling short to Hadding was a terrible idea. It's not always a Captian's fault, there was nothing that Dhoni could do about Yadav bowling rank long hops and wide outside off to Warner at the start of the second innings.

At international level captains do not have to come up with a grand statergy, all they have to do is work out when it is time to switch from plan A to plan B to plan C. The true test of a captain is when every preplanned idea isn't working, and there are not a lot of modern captains who can change the course of the game when it's all going wrong.

I did not watch Smith's captaincy but i take your view on it because you seen that. But regarding Dhoni and Haddin, i watched that. Haddin was struggling to face the short ball in third test. iirc Umesh in particular, made it very tough for Haddin with shot pitch. Haddin was making room by moving to leg stump and try hitting the ball through off. I think short pitch worked against Haddin in that spell as he clearly was struggling to bat well. His innings was very patchy and far from settled.

My view still is that captaincy is a tough job due to many factors. This is what i was debating because you said captaincy is easy. However, we can disagree. Coming back to topic now, i think Dhoni needed to be replaced as captain. It was long back that Dhoni should have been held accountable as captain.

[Making_Splinters]

I did not watch Smith's captaincy but i take your view on it because you seen that. But regarding Dhoni and Haddin, i watched that. Haddin was struggling to face the short ball in third test. iirc Umesh in particular, made it very tough for Haddin with shot pitch. Haddin was making room by moving to leg stump and try hitting the ball through off. I think short pitch worked against Haddin in that spell as he clearly was struggling to bat well. His innings was very patchy and far from settled.

My view still is that captaincy is a tough job due to many factors. This is what i was debating because you said captaincy is easy. However, we can disagree. Coming back to topic now, i think Dhoni needed to be replaced as captain. It was long back that Dhoni should have been held accountable as captain.

Haddin had no problems in the first innings against the short pitched bowling, he was hitting them cleaning both with the hook / pull and the jab over mid wicket. He hit 4 or 5 five boundries off it. In the second test they got him out that way.