Ashes 2021-22.

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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:33 am

bigfluffylemon wrote: Regardless of the failings or not of county cricket, when a player who has performed well there goes into the England set-up, they should be benefitting from elite coaching and further improving. How many players in the last ten years have actually got better, or even maintained their capability, under the England management?


I have been saying this for over a decade, but it all comes down to the vision you put in place for selection and what elements of a player you are actually putting your faith in.

There are many examples, but the best that springs to mind is someone like Tom Westley. They looked at short term form over career production, something I didnt agree with at the time, but the guy then came in and I thought actually he looked pretty technically sound. There was something to work on there. You just sometimes look at a player and think, regardless of how he gets out or how he scores, that he sets up like a superior player and given time he might do something - but England's view was, he was picked because his form had peaked, and if he didnt peak instantly he was not worth more than 4 tests. By extension, you are then saying you dont even trust your own judgement.

Regardless of how a test player comes into the game, one has to assume that once he has satisfied the grade for test cricket, you have to give him time.

Another that springs to mind was Mason Crane. They said Mason had something about him, take out the stats and hes a young guy trying to perfect the hardest art in the game.... we think he will improve, we think he has the tools. One innings later, suddenly the figures mattered. A guy averaging 50 a wicket in FC was never, ever in a million yeras going to walk into the test arena and hit the ground running on the hardest tour, at the end of a cremation of a series, vs a side with batsman at the time averaging in the 70s at home on dead pitches.

What is thinking behind the selection then? Why bother picking him to develop him and give him experience acknowledging he isnt at that point ready, only to then drop him forever when he returns about what any reasonable person would expect. Kerrigan is another, what was it? 6 overs he got? You telling me a selection panel sat there and said "this guy is the future for x,y,z" and that opinion was strong enough to get him a cap in the national team, but that opinion was destroyed in the space of 15 minutes? Or was that just a punt. Were those involved picking him not believing he could do well, and just hoping?

It matters a lot because, where spin is concerned especially, is you are a 20 year old spinner in county cricket playing on pitches that are already tough and dont help you, imagine what it must be like. You see the Cranes and Kerrigans getting one innings. You see Jack Leach tearing up the championship, but the coach dismantling his personality in public. You see someone like you in Bess doing an OK job for the national team, but the coach tearing into him after one bad game away against the one side that destroy spin routinely.

Motivation much?
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby alfie » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:18 am

Really have to agree with Sussex here (see , I do sometimes :) ) about the handling of spinners. They often seem to be selected at the wrong time - and discarded rather abruptly on the evidence of a single game , or an isolated bad performance after some moderate success. If Australia had adopted a similar approach Shane Warne's career might have been strangled at birth !

The circumstances of all the cases mentioned are slightly different but surely all might have been handled better. (One might throw in another one or two cap wonders as well : Chris Schofield ? Scott Borthwick - though in fairness he was probably regarded more as a batsman who could bowl , and didn't fire in his primary role : but like Crane was a sacrificial victim at the end of an Ashes disaster)

Kerrigan I felt at the time was almost talked into the team by the media. He was doing very well in the County game and getting a lot of good press ; and with the Test Series won it seemed to me he was given a game by selectors who really weren't convinced at all about his merits and so were very ready to dump him with an almost unspoken "told you so". Far better he'd been kept waiting until the right time and picked when they were serious about him. Unfortunately his game seemed to fall off a cliff after his Test experience so he never got another shot.

Crane was another "wild card" . Thrown a suicide pass at Sydney and promptly shelved after a horrible set of numbers (though I actually thought at the time he showed the odd sign of hope for the future - not rewarded of course , and lost in the overall hammering he took.) It was reasonable he then dropped back into the pack but he really ought to have had more support and encouragement afterwards in order to ensure he didn't feel totally discarded. I may be wrong here - perhaps they did give him such , without any publicity ; as he has had the odd whiteball call up since so presumably remains on the radar. Shane Warne continues to push his case and possibly he will get another chance yet ? Have to say his FC figures remain a concern : wrist spinners can take time ; but I'd have hoped for a little better by now . We will see : Warne can be a pain but his opinions on players in this particular discipline probably shouldn't be totally disregarded. I certainly wouldn't reject him if he offered to become England's spin bowling coach !

Less sure about the batting example. Westley didn't actually strike me at first sight as all that good. Not rubbish ; but he didn't impress me as much as , say , Crawley. Matter of opinion , of course ; and it is fair to say four games is a pretty brief trial - something similar could be said for a Robson or Lyth I guess. It does seem they have been trying to give the openers a rather longer run lately but unfortunately it hasn't really worked as we look at Burns (average 30) Sibley (28) Hameed (24) Crawley - who to be fair is really a three trying to bat one) also about 28.

In fairness to management it is much more difficult justifying giving a young batsman a decent run if he is one of maybe three players all in the same situation and the team is getting smashed. When Ian Bell came on board they were able to basically carry him through an entire Ashes Series against a brilliant Aussie team because he was surrounded by Strauss Trescothick Vaughan Flintoff - and the already established white ball star making his transition in Pietersen. Bit different from coming in and batting with Joe Root and a bunch of others who can barely average thirty ! The public has little patience with continued losses , however much people may talk about the need to invest in the future. For myself , I think it is a bit of a balancing act : I would prefer to them to try and establish at least a serviceable line up of players with some experience and achievements behind them and insert maybe one , two at the most , young players , based more on their potential - and then give those lads a bit of time. Indeed that is what I'd hope to see in West Indies in March for a start - but that is one for another post.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:11 am

Not sure if this is the thread for it, or we need a separate women's Ashes one, but well batted Heather Knight :salute

Personal high score keeping England in the only test. Singlehandedly.

Unfortunately a thunderstorm is about to hit Canberra and the forecast for the rest of the day is a bit grim.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:26 pm

wiped out all play after lunch, which the BBC choose to interpret as a hindrance to an England push for victory, but which I interpret as giving England the chance to come away with another rain affected draw.

weather has been shocking for the women's test series
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:09 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:wiped out all play after lunch, which the BBC choose to interpret as a hindrance to an England push for victory, but which I interpret as giving England the chance to come away with another rain affected draw.

weather has been shocking for the women's test series


Australia are ahead, but with two quick wickets the match was in the balance.

England need a win to have any hope of reclaiming the Ashes.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby GarlicJam » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:07 am

Yes, well done Heather Knight. Fantastic effort.

England can still win the Ashes - but they will have to win all three ODIs. (assuming this test is a draw)
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:46 am

Australia are building a decent lead. However there's rain on the forecast, which may well have the final say.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby alfie » Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:20 am

Despite all the rain , the match has remained just about alive into this final session. Australia declared seven down and left England chasing 257 off 48 overs. Currently 110/2 from exactly half of those , after some belligerent batting from the openers and Knight since tea. Still need 147 off 24 so a pretty tall order ; but it is keeping the crowd awake ...

Suspect we would have had a result with a little less time lost to the weather. Both teams have certainly done their best to keep the contest going so full marks to them for that :thumb
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby GarlicJam » Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:54 am

What a finish is turning out here. Exciting stuff.

As I'm writing. Knight is given lb, that changes things
Maybe
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:12 am

Heading for a gripping finish. Was it an overly generous declaration, considering a draw would leave Australia ahead in the series.

48 overs isn't a lot to bowl a team out, so maybe Australia were hoping England would lose wickets going for it. But 260 off 48 should be impossible in a test.

As it is, Australia have 8 fielders on the boundary after declaring twice.

53 needed off 11 overs. Going to be tight.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby alfie » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:15 am

Worth watching , isn't it ? I thought the demise of Knight might halt the England charge : but after Dunkley overturned her first ball lbw decision through drs , she has launched herself towards the target...37 off 21 balls !

Sciver on 52.

Ten overs left. Need another 45 ...
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby alfie » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:25 am

Of course , in a white ball game , 45 in ten would be a walk in the park. But in a Test the fielding team has the ability to go ultra defensive with no field restrictions and bowlers allowed to bowl a lot more wide stuff. That over from Sutherland stemmed the flow of runs. And King's over equally tight.

43 off eight needed . The two batters just seem to be getting a bit over anxious now , after seemingly cruising...
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:30 am

Sciver out for 58, after Australia had halted the bleeding.

As Alfie said, in an ODI, would be easy, but in a test keeping that rate up is hard.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:30 am

Sciver out for 58, after Australia had halted the bleeding.

As Alfie said, in an ODI, would be easy, but in a test keeping that rate up is hard.
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Re: Ashes 2021-22.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:30 am

Sciver out for 58, after Australia had halted the bleeding.

As Alfie said, in an ODI, would be easy, but in a test keeping that rate up is hard.
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