England tour of India, Jan 25 - March 11

[sussexpob]

no Shami in that squad. Is he out for the series too?

He's injured but the latest I saw said he was hoping to be back later in the series.

I thought the BCCI had picked the squad for the rest of the series, and that anyone not picked in the squad would not feature at any point.

[Durhamfootman]

Perhaps not, because India have left Rahul out of the squad, but have said they expect him to be fit enough to return for the last 2 tests

Just noticed that Shreyas has been omitted from that squad too

[bigfluffylemon]

Stokes about to play his 100th test

[Durhamfootman]

Wood for Bashir the only change

When I saw they were thinking about 2 seam for Rajkot, I think I just assumed that Rehan would miss out, because he turns the ball the same way as Hartley and Bashir offers an alternative direction of turn, but now I suspect they've picked Rehan and Hartley because both can bat.... and both have had to in the two matches thus far.

plus Rehan did a decent enough job as a nightwatchman in the second test

[bigfluffylemon]

Stokes about to play his 100th test

I know this is a debate that can never be settled, and when we discussed a few years ago most people had Flintoff ahead of him, but for me Stokes has now surpassed him as the finest England all-rounder I've seen (I'm too young to have watched Botham at his best).

For all that we talk of Fred's golden years, Stokes' 2019-2020 record is a batting average of 50 with 4 hundreds, and 41 wickets at 27. Fred's 2004-2005 he had a batting average of 40 with 3 tons and 111 wickets at 25. Both pretty darn impressive. Although obviously Flintoff was more a bowler and Stokes more a batter.

Stokes has had a much more consistent impact over his whole career. Flintoff's record outside 2004-05 is pretty ordinary - if you discount their 2 best years Stokes' has a better batting and bowling average by several points, more hundreds, more 5-fers, more runs, more wickets , more catches per match. About the only metric Flintoff wins on is wickets per match, but that's largely a function of bowling more overs per game - Stokes has a better strike rate. And outside 03-06 I'm struggling to remember a game that Flintoff really had an impact at all. Lord's 2009 I guess.

Stokes captaincy has also tipped the scales (Fred was a joke as captain). Add in bringing home the 50 and 20 over world cups and over the career, I think Stokes exceeds Flintoff.

But 2005 will forever be special - perhaps Stokes will not be considered the greater until he dominates an Ashes victory.

[Arthur Crabtree]

A couple for Wood, with the new ball too. But Rohit and Jadeja taking the game away from ENgland. Biggest partnership of the series.

Root dropped Rohit on 27.

[Arthur Crabtree]

For me, Stokes is a batter and Freddie was a bowler. There's a feeling of what-if with Flintoff, because of his injuries. When he was fit for a continuous period in 04-05, he was extraordinary. Stokes is maybe the best fielder England ever had. I'm calling it even, but perhaps that's because I was a fan during the noughties.

[mikesiva]

Rohit gets his century!

[sussexpob]

Stokes has had a much more consistent impact over his whole career. Flintoff's record outside 2004-05 is pretty ordinary - if you discount their 2 best years Stokes' has a better batting and bowling average by several points, more hundreds, more 5-fers, more runs, more wickets , more catches per match. About the only metric Flintoff wins on is wickets per match, but that's largely a function of bowling more overs per game - Stokes has a better strike rate. And outside 03-06 I'm struggling to remember a game that Flintoff really had an impact at all. Lord's 2009 I guess

Did Ben ever find himself bowling to Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey, Symonds and Gilchrist in the same match, then faced up to Warne, McGrath, Lee, Clark and DIzzy when coming out to bat? Does Ben's record v WI, which is his best team to bat against, include facing up to Ambrose and Walsh with the ball, or did he ever bowl to Lara or Chanderpaul? Did Ben ever have to bowl to Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman, who could actually bat away from home unlike now (And who statistically are very slightly better at home as a unit than even the undefeatable post 2010 Indians).

Did Ben have to face up to Pollock, Donald, Ntini and Steyn when playing South Africa then bat against a great line up featuring all time greats (as a comparison, 12 batters in Flintoff's span averaged 40+ for SA, in Ben's span its 2, and 1 is the same - ABDV... the other Amla averaged dead on 40, and 39.8 in Flintoffs era, so really we can say 11 more quality bats and 2 the same for Flintoff).

Did Ben ever score a run against a Sri Lankan team with Murali on all innings? Did he ever bowl to a Sri Lankan team that included world class talent like Sangakka, Jaywardene, Samawaeera or P Da Silva? Has he ever played Pakistan against a peak Shoaib Akhtar, Asif, Saqlain or Waqar? Or had to bowl to Yousuf, Inzi, peak Younis Khan?

The quality of players in Flintoff's era are beyond compare to Stokes. If Stokes had carted around Shane Warne like he was a county trundler during a series he averaged 19 and took 40 wickets, then I'll tell you he's a better bat.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Yes, good points!

[Arthur Crabtree]

Wood gets Rohit. Maybe an opportunity here. New ball in an hour, if it helps. On the other hand, India have a big platform. Maybe a crucial passage in the Test.

[sussexpob]

For me, Stokes is a batter and Freddie was a bowler. There's a feeling of what-if with Flintoff, because of his injuries. When he was fit for a continuous period in 04-05, he was extraordinary. Stokes is maybe the best fielder England ever had. I'm calling it even, but perhaps that's because I was a fan during the noughties.

At Flintoff's peak, he took over 100 wickets at an average that was 2nd best in its time span (24), only bettered by Glenn McGrath. This is a period of cricket with historically high scoring, and if you subtract the era difference average to the current one, we are talking Sydney Barnes type figures. And he played a considerable amount of that span not only in the highest stakes test matches, but against an Australia side considered objectively as the best the sport had ever seen. He was selected to open the bowling as a specialist for the World XI game in Australia, where he did very well also.

He also averaged I think about 40 with the bat at that time. There can be no doubt that at that moment, he was the best all-rounder in the game, and also a top specialist.

In comparison, Stokes took 56 tests to break into the top 20 batters. He peaked at 3 in the world in 2020 after plundering Roston Chase for 176, but was outside the top 10 either side of that year. This short peak where he was objectively considered a top batter in the world was followed by a year where he took 9 wickets at nearly 50, and averaged 20 with the bat.... it was also a year where he played two top sides. So at Ben's "peak" against worthy opposition, its fair to say he was rubbish. Its simply not comparable.

Since that Ben has declined. He has averaged 31 with the bat, and 35 with the ball, and has only taken about 1 wicket per test and ceased to bowl. Its worth remembering Flintoff's figures and "his peak only lasted x amount of time" is in the context of a complete career..... if Ben continues to decline like his stats show in the last 3-4 years, will their career averages be that different at the end? I guess we wait to see..... but its debatable how ever long Stokes plays whether or not he is an allrounder anymore, or will ever be again.

And as a specialist bat, hes not special. He ranks between 29 and 16 since 2020 as a specialist, in an era of declining batting quality. In his career span he isnt even that great to his England compatriots.... in a span that includes 3-4 of England's worst ever batting performance years in history, he ranks as the 7th best average of regular players, and Ollie Pope is only a fraction of a run behind with current trends suggesting they swap soon.

And as an all-rounder, can Ben ever claim to have been a generational consistent best? In 100 tests, he has ranked number 1 all rounder for only 4 tests... and he only took 6 wickets in 4 tests, and didnt bowl in 2 of them, so not sure you could have said at that moment the rankings were reflective.

Its amazing for instance how much people love Ben Stokes, but make so many cavaets for Jadeja being a home banker. His average with the bat is only 2 runs less away from home than Ben Stokes, and his bowling is much better...at home, they are beyond compare.... Ben Stokes really has never been the best all-rounder in the world at any point.

[sussexpob]

As for the match, it feels impossible to quantify this pitch so far. Early in the morning, the ball was misbehaving when new, Jaiswal got one that clearly jumped a little, Patidar got one that just seemed to hold in the pitch a little, and Gill faced a spell where there was clearly some seam and inconsistent bounce (he got a few balls move away from him and die a little off the pitch, then the wicket ball held its line off the deck and it did him). That drop from Root at that time England were on top is going to hurt.... get Sharma there, you have a couple of debutants coming into a disaster....

But then, as the innings goes on and the ball goes soft, it looks a back breaker of a pitch. England did alright to limit India with a few early wickets, but its not done them much good over the day, as the ball has wore off and the batsman have tucked into the buffet. Anderson found some reverse, so I have the feeling Bumrah is key in England's first innings.... if he can do some damage early, then get some drift going in the middle overs where England have been toothless on this deck, it could be the difference.

Its a deck where I would think it prudent to ditch the bazball for 20 overs, just see off the new ball and then cash in later. I doubt England will.

Safaraz certainly looks a step up from the other Indian new bats so far. Can tell he has scored runs recently, looks full of confidence

[sussexpob]

England might not enjoy seeing that Hartley ball suddenly grip and rip though..... or seeing Anderson running down the pitch and getting a telling off when they have to bat last.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Maybe Stokes was the best pace bowling all rounder of the teens? Presumably Kallis was past his best by then. He has some legendary knocks. In defence of his bowling, he had an unsympathetic captain.

Freddie only took three 5-fers and never took ten wickets in a match, which is a major negative. And only five tons. Stokes has 13.

Neither is a Sobers, or a Kallis. But both had value as England players and briefly caught the eye across the world. Freddie was a player of huge charisma and likability too.