2nd Test England v Pakistan, Old Trafford, 22-26 July

[Aidan11]

Not a good shot from Misbah..

[Aidan11]

England bowlers have their tails up here.

[hopeforthebest]

As my Mum would say "this is money for old rope".

[Making_Splinters]

What a day for England.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Looked up Woakes' record, just because of how hard bowlers have found it over the last couple of decades to average better than Angus Fraser (I realise this was a pretty meaningless stat). Hadn't grasped that Chris Tremlett managed it, though with only 52 wickets. Really underrated bowler, arguably England's best this century.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Great day for Woakes. And Root. And England.

Hope Yasir beats Lohman's record, shame he had a drop today.

[hopeforthebest]

Looked up Woakes' record, just because of how hard bowlers have found it over the last couple of decades to average better than Angus Fraser (I realise this was a pretty meaningless stat). Hadn't grasped that Chris Tremlett managed it, though with only 52 wickets. Really underrated bowler, arguably England's best this century.

How did you think of judging a bowler using Angus Fraser as 'the gold standard', is his test average the best from an England bowler?

[hopeforthebest]

After the way England batsmen gifted Yasir Shah wickets at Lords, I think it was vital that they showed him and proved to themselves that in our conditions he's not the great bowler. It will be a big blow to the moral of the whole Pakistani team.

[backfootpunch]

Looked up Woakes' record, just because of how hard bowlers have found it over the last couple of decades to average better than Angus Fraser (I realise this was a pretty meaningless stat). Hadn't grasped that Chris Tremlett managed it, though with only 52 wickets. Really underrated bowler, arguably England's best this century.

Such a shame tremlett and Jones had potentially great careers robbed from them

[backfootpunch]

After the way England batsmen gifted Yasir Shah wickets at Lords, I think it was vital that they showed him and proved to themselves that in our conditions he's not the great bowler. It will be a big blow to the moral of the whole Pakistani team.

Have to say I was surprised when Warne said Yasir had the best leg break he had seen

Yes he has very good control buy he doesn't turn the ball much at all

[Arthur Crabtree]

Looked up Woakes' record, just because of how hard bowlers have found it over the last couple of decades to average better than Angus Fraser (I realise this was a pretty meaningless stat). Hadn't grasped that Chris Tremlett managed it, though with only 52 wickets. Really underrated bowler, arguably England's best this century.

How did you think of judging a bowler using Angus Fraser as 'the gold standard', is his test average the best from an England bowler?

It's more that Bob Willis is the only bowler for England in my time to retire with approaching a world class average. Since then, the best has been Angus Fraser, a fine bowler who attracted little hyperbole. So I look out for players measuring better than Fraser. Hendrick and it seems, Tremlett have managed it, but not taken that many wickets. I think Headley was there or thereabouts, but also didn't have a long career. So Fraser is a bowler to beat for me. Gough had a great strike rate, but averaged more. Then there are about a dozen averaging 28-31.

[backfootpunch]

Looked up Woakes' record, just because of how hard bowlers have found it over the last couple of decades to average better than Angus Fraser (I realise this was a pretty meaningless stat). Hadn't grasped that Chris Tremlett managed it, though with only 52 wickets. Really underrated bowler, arguably England's best this century.

How did you think of judging a bowler using Angus Fraser as 'the gold standard', is his test average the best from an England bowler?

It's more that Bob Willis is the only bowler for England in my time to retire with approaching a world class average. Since then, the best has been Angus Fraser, a fine bowler who attracted little hyperbole. So I look out for players measuring better than Fraser. Hendrick and it seems, Tremlett have managed it, but not taken that many wickets. I think Headley was there or thereabouts, but also didn't have a long career. So Fraser is a bowler to beat for me. Gough had a great strike rate, but averaged more. Then there are about a dozen averaging 28-31.

These days an average of 28-29 is world class for a seamer given how flat most of the pitches are

Probably equivalent to 25-26 in frasers day

Dale Steyn is very much an outlier for this generation of bowlers, head and shoulders above anyone else with a long career

[backfootpunch]

Pakistan are touring new zealand and Australia in the winter

Be very interesting to see how Yasir does, no doubt he will get 20+ wickets against the west indies in the UAE before hand, the West indies probably the only team that plays leg spin worse than England

[braveneutral]

What is Lohman's record?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Least to 100 wickets. From memory (I'm at work), he got there in 16 games. Yas beats it if he gets there in the next game, or equals it at the Oval. I think pre WWI records come from another world though. Post WWI, he beats everyone at the Oval ,and equals in the game after this series.