English football 2022-23

[Durhamfootman]

Oh.... and 4th in the league

[sussexpob]

Conte moaning he doesnt have enough money .... my god, you spent 70 million on a player you didnt need you plank. If you cant win with Kulu, Kane and Son up top, then maybe you should look at yourself

[Durhamfootman]

I thought Spurs were particularly poor defensively. Newcastle could have had an early penalty courtesy of Emerson Royal who was hopeless all game. It probably wasn't a penalty, but it was a very clumsy challenge and I've seen them given. Dier nearly put the ball in hs own net because he wasn't looking when he back passed to a stranded Lloris, with the ball rolling just past the outside of the post. The hapless ER could have given away a penalty in the second half too, as the ball hit his outstretched arm. Again, probably not a penalty, but again, I've seen those given. But the star of the show defensively was Lloris. He made mistake after mistake, misjudgement after misjudgement. Absolutely woeful performance. Competely at fault for the first goal and largely at fault for the second.

If Spurs defend like that in the Champions League, they'll get torn to shreds.

The criticism of Conte from Spurs fans seems to be that he has a wealth of attacking creativity at his disposal, but he always sets up his side to sit back and defend and hope to hit on the counter, with Kane having to drop deeper and deeper to get any sort of possession at all. In that case he ought to be a certainty to become England's next manager once their world cup campaign disintegrates in December, because Southgate's been getting away with murder for years doing exactly the same thing

Man Utd and Newcastle worked out how Spurs were going to play and countered it by pressing high and piling on the pressure. International teams will do the same to England later in the year

[Durhamfootman]

And I have to say, btw, how good a player Joelinton has become under Howe. his first couple of years were awful. No-one could understand why anyone would pay 40 mill for a dud like that. Now he's become a beast. He must be a nightmare to play against. He will not be shaken off the ball when he has it, he works tirelessly in both directions. When he isn't driving forward he's breaking up dangerous attacks tracking back. I think he's a terrific player now

It's great that Newcastle finally have a manager who can get the best out of his players. Almiron has gone from being a rapid, hard working, committed player with no end product, to a goal scoring machine. Schar struggled to get a game under Bruce, now he plays every week in the meanest defence in the league.... and it feels like a fair few of the not many goals conceded have come when Lascelles has been brought on to replace him. The difference in Longstaff this season is astonishing. He's gone from promising youngster to a player who completely justfies his place in a 3 man midfield. Newcastle have got a very good central midfield quintet in their squad, but only Guimaraes is guaranteed a starting place ahead of Longstaff atm

Good to see Shelvey back on the pitch yesterday, albeit for only a few minutes. If he can command a starting place as the more defensively minded centre mid, Bruno will be be able to push further forward and create even more problems for teams than he already does

Get ASM back, get to work on assimilating Isak into the side over the winter once he's fit again and who knows where this side could go

this season is wildly exceeding expectations

[bigfluffylemon]

The behaviour of managers this season has been shockingly poor, coming off an already low base. Conte the latest to get sent off after showing dissent at VAR. There has been story after story this season of bad manager behaviour, and apparently it's leaking through to lower leagues - I read a piece about a youth league somewhere (may have been Liverpool) cancelling all games a few weekends ago as an ultimatum against abuse of referees from parents and players alike.

Whatever happened to good sportsmanship and the referee's decision being final?

I can understand a little the frustration with VAR when it was, like DRS, supposed to have been introduced to overcome the 'howler', and now is used for marginal calls that take several minutes to decide. But that's a conversation to have about its use in the game more broadly, not yelling at the ref when VAR is invoked to make a decision (which in the case today was correct, albeit obscure).

[sussexpob]

The behaviour of managers this season has been shockingly poor, coming off an already low base. Conte the latest to get sent off after showing dissent

Managers are under incredible pressure to produce instant results - Conte is third in the league and top of his Champions League group, and yet there are widespread calls to sack him..... While I sort of agree with the point, I ask myself would I react any differently? The goal in question was guaranteed qualification - millions of pounds at stake, job security at stake.... now Spurs can get knocked out next week, and that if it happens is probably his job gone.

The decision was inexplicable. Not only does the ball headed on look visibly in front of Kane, but even if you disagree how can you be sure its clear? In short you cant... the referee spent bloody 4 minutes looking at it, so how clear was he? Its an absolute nonsensical decision that has huge potential ramifications. What we seemingly have is a system where someone takes 5 minutes on a coin flip.

And why does the fact it touches a defender not apply because he's not deliberately trying to play the ball? If it hits his arm in that situation, they will say he was deliberately playing the ball, but if its his side he isnt? And how is a defender trying to put himself in a position to defend the ball coming in, NOT deliberately trying to make contact with the ball? Isnt it the very reason he's running back?

The application of the rules are nonsensical.... I fully understand why Conte went ballistic.

[Gingerfinch]

Managers have always lost it haven't they? From Clough to Fergie, even back then when there wasn't the pressure that social and mainstream media have heaped on them.
Grassroots in England is pretty bad from what I see every week. We have 15-17 year old boys and girls ref our games and most managers and some supporters seem to forget they have minimal experience. Two weeks ago I was warned by an opposition manager that their own ref was abysmal and that he himself is guilty of shouting at him throughout the game, which he certainly did in our game. That said, I do struggle to bite my tongue at times, so I can see why managers at the top end of English and European Football will from time to time lose their rag.

[bigfluffylemon]

And why does the fact it touches a defender not apply because he's not deliberately trying to play the ball? If it hits his arm in that situation, they will say he was deliberately playing the ball, but if its his side he isnt? And how is a defender trying to put himself in a position to defend the ball coming in, NOT deliberately trying to make contact with the ball? Isnt it the very reason he's running back?

The application of the rules are nonsensical.... I fully understand why Conte went ballistic.

I don't agree with that one. The rule is quite clear that if the ball rebounds off a defender you can still be offside, while if it is deliberately played you can't. 'Being in the way' isn't deliberately played - deliberate implies some control, whereas a rebound is something that bounces off your body without you having any idea or control about where it's going. Otherwise every deflected shot should be credited as an own goal, as surely the defender was 'trying' to defend the shot by being in a position to get in the way.

It was a very, very tight call as to whether Kane was behind the ball. As I said, have the debate all day about whether VAR should be brought it for marginal calls. But do it respectfully and in the proper way, rather than losing your rag at the referee for making a marginal but correct decision.

[bigfluffylemon]

The behaviour of managers this season has been shockingly poor, coming off an already low base. Conte the latest to get sent off after showing dissent

Managers are under incredible pressure to produce instant results - Conte is third in the league and top of his Champions League group, and yet there are widespread calls to sack him.....

The calls to sack him are ridiculous, but that's the world managers sign up to. Geez, I wish I was in a position where I could get a multi-million pound exit deal for not being very good at my job. Cry me a river.

[sussexpob]

deliberate implies some control

Deliberate implies intention towards the resultant act and has nothing to do with the act itself. To say someone's intention is changed on the basis of the specific results or manifestations of the action, is quite frankly mad. If I walk into a pub intended to deliberately murder everyone inside, but spray every single bullet into the wall, do we say that person had no intention to kill because that specific result was unintended?

I cant see how that rule can be interpreted any other way.... is the defender trying to touch the ball? Clear in this case yes.... so we move on. Does the ball hitting you while trying to block it constitute playing the ball? Well, pretty much everywhere else in the rules, it would.

Of course, if the defender was on the floor in pain having just injured himself, and the ball whacked him... different. No intention.

If the rule should convey a different level of action and intention, it should be re-written to apply it. Because the rules make zero sense as they are

[bigfluffylemon]

No, the IAFB guidelines say that deliberate play requires control of the ball:

Deliberate play’ is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate; or
gaining possession of the ball; or
clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it).

https://www.theifab.com/news/law-11-off ... ading%20it).

It's not 'the player is trying to be in the vicinity of the ball in some way'. Deliberate play requires that the player knew where the ball was and was in control of their attempt to play it.

Otherwise why have an exception for deflections at all?

Anyway, that's not really the point. I think it was the right call, albeit marginal, and most of the commentary I've seen agrees, although there's clearly some judgement required about what is or isn't deliberate. But the referee is the one who makes that judgement. Losing your *modded* at the referee when marginal calls go against you isn't on.

[sussexpob]

No, the IAFB guidelines say that deliberate play requires control of the ball

So deliberate doesnt mean deliberate, and a player watching a ball from 20 yards away has control of said ball before he actually touches it.

Yep, have to concede these rules are very clear, well written, and easily applied. And that the control elements defined are in no way quantified/contradictory makes them much clearer.

Otherwise why have an exception for deflections at all?

Good question. When a player is offside and gains an advantage just because a defender doesnt play to the whistle, why is it different? It occurs to me it shouldnt be.

[sussexpob]

The truth is, there rules were re-written because of the Benzema goal in the CL final specifically. What we now have is a set of rules that may as well be written in Mandarin.

- Dont go to the shop

Shop is not a shop, but actually a boat
Not going is defined as going in 60% of the cases.
The word go should be defined as not moving

Thats what this sounds like to me

[Durhamfootman]

Newcastle can't stop scoring goals. 4 today and they hit the woodwork twice too. Only a late winner for Spurs stopped them from climbing to 3rd in the table.

Heady times

[Gingerfinch]

Howe for England