New International Football thread

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Re: New International Football thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:32 pm

Harry Kane adds 4 more goals to his 3 against Albania

currently beating SM 10 - 0 with 5 mins to go and they've had 2 ruled out that I know of

might be a bit of a mis-match.... I can't really tell :facepalm
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby bigfluffylemon » Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:29 pm

I know we've had this discussion before, and people disagree with me, but what was the bloody point of that? England's second XI thrash a team that has never in history won a competitive fixture 10-0. San Marino are 210 out of 210 FIFA ranked teams, and scored one goal in ten games (in a 7-1 defeat). If this were the English league, it would be like Liverpool lining up against something like 7th division Grantham Town (hell, Grantham has a bigger population than San Marino).

(As an aside, I do wonder what the point of these European micro nations is in general. Most seem to be to only survive as tax havens, which I'm not sure benefits the greater good all that much, while for all practical purposes using the infrastructure of the country that surrounds them? I'm sure their citizens are happy enough with the status quo, but I do wonder what the benefits actually are of being an independent country with a smaller population than an English market town).

I know that having minnow teams around allows for the 1 in 100 or worse chance of an upset that does affect the group (North Macedonia beating Germany and qualifying for the playoffs for example - but heck, North Macedonia are 65 in the world and 34 out of 55 UEFA teams - there are 20 teams worse than them), and you occasionally get wins from outside like Radecanu in the US Open. But the difference there is that Radecanu had to win three qualifying games before she even got to play in the tournament proper (and her 4th round at Wimbledon should have indicated that at the very least, she was good enough to mix it with the top players - didn't she only have to qualify because an injury meant she hadn't been able to play enough to get sufficient ranking points for auto qualification?).

I do think all would be better served by having a pre-qualifier for the bottom 20 UEFA teams or so, with the top 5 getting to then play the qualifiers proper. That would give you eight qualifying groups of 5. Then teams would actually get to play other teams of similar standard and have some actual competitive and interesting games, their supporters might have something to actually cheer and get excited about rather than being routinely thrashed (even if you're never going to get to the World Cup, you can target the achievement of the pre-qualifying tournament), and the teams that deserved it by winning would still get to play in the big leagues and get the chance to do what North Macedonia have done. It just happened in the T20 world cup, and for once I think the ICC got it right.
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby Gingerfinch » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:09 am

I agree with pre-qualifiers.

San Marino and other like Gibraltar could then at least go out and have a go at playing Football in a competitive match. Watching them last night, you could see the obvious frustration in the way they played. Kicking the ball in row Z (well F) for instance when there was no England player around them. They're also too physically weak to compete.
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:03 pm

Dante got on for Belgium v Wales..... come on my boy! Score the winner!!!

:clap :clap
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:53 pm

And qualifying main stage done.

Hundreds of matches, and it's mostly told us what we already know - 8 of the 10 top seeded teams topped their group, and the remaining winners were from the second pot of seeds (Switzerland, ranked 11 out of UEFA teams, finishing ahead of Italy, who are 4th, isn't an enormous upset). The two top seeded teams who didn't win finished second, and five of the other second place spots went to second ranked teams. Russia finished ahead of Slovakia, who are two places ahead of them, so not much of an upset there really.

Pretty much every team performed to expectations, with the notable exceptions of Serbia finishing ahead of Portugal, Scotland finishing ahead of Austria (who still qualified for the playoffs anyway via the Nations League), and North Macedonia finishing ahead of Romania and Iceland (and beating Germany along the way, hats off to them :salute). But who'd bet against Italy and Portugal being two of the three teams that get through the playoffs?
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:03 pm

Also, could someone please explain to me why Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Israel are members of UEFA rather than the Asian conference, and why the heck Gibralter has its own football team, given it's a non-self-governing territory?
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:39 pm

bigfluffylemon wrote:Also, could someone please explain to me why Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Israel are members of UEFA rather than the Asian conference, and why the heck Gibralter has its own football team, given it's a non-self-governing territory?


Well Israel is easy - no one is mad enough to ever put in place a system that makes Israel travelling to places like Iran, UAE or Palestine for a game. There was (not sure now) fairly recently about 30 nations that banned Israeli's from entry, UAE I know still does, most of them would be AFC teams. So rather than face logistical, political and possible military disasters over football, it was thought best to put Israel with Europe.

Azerbaijan while being in Asia, argued that the distances involved with matches in Asia meant more sense for them to play in Europe, which tbf is true. Its 4 hours to London by flight, and about 10 to Indonesia on the other side of Asia. Added to that you could make a case that if the Caucasus mountains are the border with Europe, then most of the North of the country is those mountains, so Azerbaijan could be considered partly in Europe with a bit of creativity and an ill defined, non exact border between continents.

Same with Kazakhstan. The Ural mountains are the boundary most used in Russia as dividing Europe and Asia - they cut through Kazakhstan leaving all the western portion technically in Europe.

Aside from that, you tend to find most of the people in these countries grew up as part of the Soviet Union, so consider themselves European as opposed to Asian.

As for Gibraltar, they have as much right as England to have a team - England, Scotland, N.Ireland and Wales all do not satisfy the independent, sovereign nation test and should not be recognised by FIFA. Its only because Britain dominated FIFA governing for decades that its historically been allowed to happen.
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:45 am

sussexpob wrote:
bigfluffylemon wrote:Also, could someone please explain to me why Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Israel are members of UEFA rather than the Asian conference, and why the heck Gibralter has its own football team, given it's a non-self-governing territory?


Well Israel is easy - no one is mad enough to ever put in place a system that makes Israel travelling to places like Iran, UAE or Palestine for a game. There was (not sure now) fairly recently about 30 nations that banned Israeli's from entry, UAE I know still does, most of them would be AFC teams. So rather than face logistical, political and possible military disasters over football, it was thought best to put Israel with Europe.


Fair enough.

[quote="sussexpob"]
Azerbaijan while being in Asia, argued that the distances involved with matches in Asia meant more sense for them to play in Europe, which tbf is true. Its 4 hours to London by flight, and about 10 to Indonesia on the other side of Asia. Added to that you could make a case that if the Caucasus mountains are the border with Europe, then most of the North of the country is those mountains, so Azerbaijan could be considered partly in Europe with a bit of creativity and an ill defined, non exact border between continents. [/q]

It's closer to six hours London to Bacu, and probably eight or more to get you between Azerbaijan and Iceland. If you're going to use that logic, where does it end? Saudi Arabia is closer to Africa than most of the Asian countries as well - should it be in Africa (or Europe, for that matter?). Venezuala is closer to most nations in CONCACAF (other than Canada) than it is to Argentina or Chile. And Australia has a minimum of a six hour flight for any away game even in its closest neighbour.

I realise you have to draw the line somewhere, but it doesn't make much sense to me. And if you're going to use that logic, Kazakhstan is much closer to countries in the Asian group. Indonesia and Australia are a long way, sure, but they are a long way from anywhere.

(As an aside, it doesn't make much sense to me that Australia is in the Asia group either, but I think that was because Australia kept winning everything in the OFC but wasn't getting the chance to play other decent sides enough as an OFC member to develop competitively).

[quote="sussexpob"]
As for Gibraltar, they have as much right as England to have a team - England, Scotland, N.Ireland and Wales all do not satisfy the independent, sovereign nation test and should not be recognised by FIFA. Its only because Britain dominated FIFA governing for decades that its historically been allowed to happen.[/q]

So why Gibraltar and not Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and the Falklands? And why not Monaco?
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:45 am

sussexpob wrote:
bigfluffylemon wrote:Also, could someone please explain to me why Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Israel are members of UEFA rather than the Asian conference, and why the heck Gibralter has its own football team, given it's a non-self-governing territory?


Well Israel is easy - no one is mad enough to ever put in place a system that makes Israel travelling to places like Iran, UAE or Palestine for a game. There was (not sure now) fairly recently about 30 nations that banned Israeli's from entry, UAE I know still does, most of them would be AFC teams. So rather than face logistical, political and possible military disasters over football, it was thought best to put Israel with Europe.


Fair enough.

sussexpob wrote:Azerbaijan while being in Asia, argued that the distances involved with matches in Asia meant more sense for them to play in Europe, which tbf is true. Its 4 hours to London by flight, and about 10 to Indonesia on the other side of Asia. Added to that you could make a case that if the Caucasus mountains are the border with Europe, then most of the North of the country is those mountains, so Azerbaijan could be considered partly in Europe with a bit of creativity and an ill defined, non exact border between continents.


It's closer to six hours London to Baku, and probably eight or more to get you between Azerbaijan and Iceland. If you're going to use that logic, where does it end? Saudi Arabia is closer to Africa than most of the Asian countries as well - should it be in Africa (or Europe, for that matter?). Venezuala is closer to most nations in CONCACAF (other than Canada) than it is to Argentina or Chile. And Australia has a minimum of a six hour flight for any away game even in its closest neighbour.

I realise you have to draw the line somewhere, but it doesn't make much sense to me. And if you're going to use that logic, Kazakhstan is much closer to countries in the Asian group. Indonesia and Australia are a long way, sure, but they are a long way from anywhere.

(As an aside, it doesn't make much sense to me that Australia is in the Asia group either, but I think that was because Australia kept winning everything in the OFC but wasn't getting the chance to play other decent sides enough as an OFC member to develop competitively).

sussexpob wrote:As for Gibraltar, they have as much right as England to have a team - England, Scotland, N.Ireland and Wales all do not satisfy the independent, sovereign nation test and should not be recognised by FIFA. Its only because Britain dominated FIFA governing for decades that its historically been allowed to happen.


So why Gibraltar and not Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and the Falklands? And why not Monaco?
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:47 am

bigfluffylemon wrote: So why Gibraltar and not Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and the Falklands? And why not Monaco?


All to do with politics.

Falklands have tried to get a team into South American Qualification, but all of South America (with the exception I believe of Chile, due to the historical ties between Thatcher and Pinochet's regime at the time of the war) reject it on the grounds that Falklands/Malvinas is Argentinian sovereign land and already represented.

After that it gets complex. Jersey and Gibraltar fought for UEFA membership around the same time, but even though Gibraltar is less autonomous being a British Overseas Colony compared to self-governing Crown Dependency of Jersey, the fact is the politics then matter. Spain have a territorial claim on Gibraltar, so the British government were motivated to get it into UEFA and support its application all the way as a political tool to give the territory political separation from Spain. With Jersey, there are no such problems, so the English FA p*ssed off a lot of the Channel Island residents by actually fighting against its application.

You also have football autonomy in the mix too, in the form of sporting governing bodies. The general rule is, the further abroad a territory is from its head of state, the more likely they are no longer attached to the main FA. Jersey for instance are considered a county in the FA football pyramid, Gibraltar had its own FA, so is more likely considered sportingly independent. The same can be said of places like Hong Kong and Macau, traditionally outside the Chinese FA reach until 1999, who still compete under their relative football associations and have their own independent league structures. So Jersey teams compete at some level in the English football competitions - Hong Kong have their own league - so FIFA consider them distinct nations.

As for Monaco, they have always maintained their national team in the French domestic system as a way to compete on better terms. Interestingly due to tax relief that might change, as French teams grumble a lot that Monaco being able to essentially pay players 50% less due to not having tax is a very unfair advantage, and been many calls for them to be kicked out the French system.
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:27 pm

bigfluffylemon wrote:I realise you have to draw the line somewhere, but it doesn't make much sense to me.


I do understand that it appears to be mad, because its easy for someone who lives outside of these countries to look at a map and think why the hell are these countries considered Europe when so far away. But deep down its actually quite a politically sensitive and extremely complex issue, because for a lot of Western/central Asians their cultural history is a mix of European and Asian influences, and dependent on the exact ingredients of a given countries past, can lead to certain strong national self-identifications with one or the other.

For countries like Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, you have to remember that they were colonized by the Russian Empire for a long time - and the Russians implemented Russian language and cultural supremacy, promoted a unified culture, and in the darkest days of brutality would murdered millions of ethnic minorities who sought autonomy or didnt fall into line. So until 1990, to some extent (and mostly extremely) we are talking about people who were indoctrinated with European language, social norms, had their indigenous religions and languages outlawed, and have by in large part only known European centric culture. Part of Soviet societies way of governing its conquered Asian dominions was to break down all levels of society and culture to be Russian - so they have been brought up as European.

Georgians and Armenians for instance are offended if you call them Asian. These are the oldest Christian nations on the planet and they see themselves as the forefront of European Christian cultures domination, and the Armenian civilization was nearly wiped out by Turkish ethnic holocausts against them - if you would even for a minute infer that Armenians are culturally part of Western Asia ...... well, I wouldnt. You'd get a hell of a violent reaction in response.

Most of these countries consider themselves dogmatically European. Even ones that have rediscovered their Asian cultures after independence, like Kazakhstan, have also implemented things like a shift to Latin alphabets and an increase tie economically and politically to Europe.

I guess in the end it comes down to whether or not you think of Europe as being representative of an idea based on culture, shared history, ethnicity, etc... or whether its just a line on the map. At which point there is no generally accepted right answer.
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby Gingerfinch » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 pm

sussexpob wrote:Dante got on for Belgium v Wales..... come on my boy! Score the winner!!!

:clap :clap


How did he play?
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Re: New International Football thread

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:53 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Dante got on for Belgium v Wales..... come on my boy! Score the winner!!!

:clap :clap


How did he play?


Wales played 11 deep and Belgium couldn't create chances. As a centre forward he hardly got the ball, and had one opportunity in a decent position where he got off the shoulder off the defender, but the defender took a dive after some contact as Dante went through on goal, and the ref gave a foul (never was).....other than that he didn't do anything of note, neither bad or good.

But buzzing for him tbh. He has a cap he can remember forever, so I'd like to hear about it whrn I see him about next.

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Re: New International Football thread

Postby Gingerfinch » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:04 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Dante got on for Belgium v Wales..... come on my boy! Score the winner!!!

:clap :clap


How did he play?


Wales played 11 deep and Belgium couldn't create chances. As a centre forward he hardly got the ball, and had one opportunity in a decent position where he got off the shoulder off the defender, but the defender took a dive after some contact as Dante went through on goal, and the ref gave a foul (never was).....other than that he didn't do anything of note, neither bad or good.

But buzzing for him tbh. He has a cap he can remember forever, so I'd like to hear about it whrn I see him about next.

I'd happily retire sharing a pitch with Kevin De bruyne


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Re: New International Football thread

Postby sussexpob » Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:15 pm

Japan score two late goals v Australia, and qualify for the WC, relegating the Aussies into the 3rd place playoff match. Atm it looks like the UAE will be waiting as the opponent baring a complex and unlikely mathematical improbability occuring....

UAE shouldnt usually muster up much fear for the Aussies, but for some bizarre reason the playoff is one match in June..... in Qatar. Average temperature 45 degrees in the day... so maybe the team from UAE used to those frankly appalling conditions will have an advantage.

Who the hell agreed to a WC qualifying decider to be played in the desert in summer?
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