Racism in English football?

[Gingerfinch]

I see your point Sussex but I don't think being uncomfortable with something is the same as receiving it. My boss, who who is quite old school, often single's out blacks, nationalities. For example, bloody French, stupid Irish etc. I do find this a bit uncomfortable but it's not the same as being called a black .... , well I don't imagine it is.

[Alviro Patterson]

Its about time we start looking at a whole spectrum of behaviour in football and punish players who feel the need to swear, act like madmen with no hint of responbility, stop cheaters who dive and players who act with wanton disregard to the paying public, who are full of impressionable kids.

I mean the worst thing in football in my opinion is the treatment of referees, who constantly get sworn at and made to feel threatened....

Absolutely, the beautiful game has been in disrepute for years and it's not all surprising racism has resurfaced itself.

Promote sportsmanship, take a zero tolerance approach to those who tarnish the game and the ills in football will disappear.

[Chris de Burgh]

Its about time we start looking at a whole spectrum of behaviour in football and punish players who feel the need to swear, act like madmen with no hint of responbility, stop cheaters who dive and players who act with wanton disregard to the paying public, who are full of impressionable kids.

I mean the worst thing in football in my opinion is the treatment of referees, who constantly get sworn at and made to feel threatened....

Absolutely, the beautiful game has been in disrepute for years and it's not all surprising racism has resurfaced itself.

Promote sportsmanship, take a zero tolerance approach to those who tarnish the game and the ills in football will disappear.

That I agree with, however that scenario would mean that the FA, UEFA and FIFA would have to grow some guts to tackle the big clubs and those teams who constantly threaten the ref (ie Barca, Real, Chelski...the list goes on)......and I may be pessimistic but I can't see that happening in a million years. Look at the outcome of the case which UEFA took to Eduardo over his dive to win a penalty at Celtic, absolutely naff all as they let him off the hook. They talk the talk but from the top down the establishments live in fear of the big clubs and the power they hold.

[mikesiva]

'Ferguson's statement that he ought to have consulted Ferdinand before insisting that every member of his squad wore the Kick It Out T-shirts on Saturday, has defused a row that, had it continued, would have disrupted preparations for United's game at Chelsea on Sunday, one in which Ferdinand will play. "The issue," Ferguson said, "is resolved." Nevertheless, he reminded Ferdinand that it was "important he airs his grievances to the right people through the PFA [Professional Footballers' Association] or the FA [Football Association]." Ferguson added of Ferdinand: "He has different issues from Paul [Scholes] or Ryan [Giggs] in terms of injuries over the last couple of years. He is still a great footballer and, even at 33, there is no reason why he can't stay on. We have always adopted that policy of offering one-year contracts, so we will see as the season progresses. Ferguson went on to explain the "communication problem" with Ferdinand. "I spoke to Rio," he said. "The issue is pretty simple. He felt I should have spoken to him on Friday and I didn't anticipate there would be any problem in the dressing room as far as the T-shirt was concerned. "I have listened to the conviction of Rio and I think it is quite compelling. I can understand his stance. But I think you are always stronger as a union. There's more solidarity than as a single unit. Obviously, as the manager of the club when you lay down policy you don't want to see it being ignored. That's where my anger came on Saturday. But we have resolved the situation, there are no lingering problems and we move on. That is the end of the matter."'



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport ... z2A7MItHjf

It's good to see common sense has prevailed....

The decision by all these players to not wear the tee-shirt has helped to put the issue on the front pages, which would not have been done if they'd worn it. I'm also seriously questioning whether Lord Ouseley is the right man to lead Kick It Out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... union.html

I believe that it would probably be more effective if black players formed their own association, which would lead to stronger statements being made against issues of racism. Kick It Out is under-staffed, under-funded, and because it's run by the FA, it doesn't tend to be take the strong stances that black players want to see. Many black players see it as a half-way house, neither here nor there, which is why so many players did what Rio and Roberts did.

I think both organisations can exist side by side - Kick It Out can be the FA's way of tackling racism, while the black football players can form their own association to tackle the issue.

[sussexpob]

I believe that it would probably be more effective if black players formed their own association, which would lead to stronger statements being made against issues of racism.

Indeed... there is nothing more effective in promoting the issue of racial equality then forming a black only club in response to it....

it doesn't tend to be take the strong stances that black players want to see.

What would be acceptable? Beheading? Public flogging? Waterboarding?

Many black players see it as a half-way house, neither here nor there, which is why so many players did what Rio and Roberts did.

Give me some details. So far no one has actually given any examples or suggested any other things other than the FA are doing a poor job and we could do better....

If the FA had banned Terry for life or treated him even a tad more harshly then the FA would probably be dragged through the courts and lose.... after all, the court not prove Terry was guilty. How, therefore, can the FA and Kick It Out then do much more?

Sorry Mike, any footballer going on about "more needs to be done" needs to put up some details or shut up frankly. I'm not hearing anything realistically constructive or grounded.

[Gingerfinch]

I believe that it would probably be more effective if black players formed their own association, which would lead to stronger statements being made against issues of racism.

Indeed... there is nothing more effective in promoting the issue of racial equality then forming a black only club in response to it....

it doesn't tend to be take the strong stances that black players want to see.

What would be acceptable? Beheading? Public flogging? Waterboarding?

Many black players see it as a half-way house, neither here nor there, which is why so many players did what Rio and Roberts did.

Give me some details. So far no one has actually given any examples or suggested any other things other than the FA are doing a poor job and we could do better....

If the FA had banned Terry for life or treated him even a tad more harshly then the FA would probably be dragged through the courts and lose.... after all, the court could prove Terry was guilty. How, therefore, can the FA and Kick It Out then do much.

Sorry Mike, any footballer going on about "more needs to be done" needs to put up some details or shut up frankly. I'm not hearing anything realistically constructive or grounded.

I see your point. Reminds me of the MOBO awards.

[Gingerfinch]

I briefly saw Les Ferdinand on BBC News this morning, comparing the JT issue to drink driving, in that you've done wrong and should pay the consequences. One is a pre-determined act and one was a comment made in the heat of the moment. Not sure why he was comparing them?

[sussexpob]

I briefly saw Les Ferdinand on BBC News this morning, comparing the JT issue to drink driving, in that you've done wrong and should pay the consequences. One is a pre-determined act and one was a comment made in the heat of the moment. Not sure why he was comparing them?

At the end of the day one has to ask, what is a suitable punishment? These people who want stricter punishments arent exactly being reasonable, I mean is it really sensible to say that a racist remark should be punished with 7 years in prison, as per Les Ferdinand's suggestion( which is very uninformed)? We cant treat racist language in isolation, the justice system unfortunately has to tie in with similar offences or other crimes and punishments, and its justice at the end of the day thats important.

If someone physically hurts someone to its lowest form then they get a fine in the courts. A small affray or charge for battery/assualt is going to get you a minimal fine and a suspended sentence, so arguably why should either jail or large fines apply to racist words?

If you want harsher punishments then you would end up with people calling someone a black **** going to prison, losing their livelyhood, or getting a 6 figure fine, yet a person who breaks someones nose walks free having paid £200.00 fine and court costs and an afternoon in court for his troubles. Its like old defamation cases where calling someone something in a publication like "incompetent" would end in a payout of £300,000, yet if the same person had negligently destroyed the other house they would get damages ten times less... rightfully this was stopped because it made no sense in the grand scheme of things!

Sticks and stones may break your bones, but names would names will never hurt you, as the old adage goes. And as I said before, if we are going to go down the route of saying that its not about physical but mental harm thats the key question, then why should Anton Ferdinand play the victim card and escape punishment after making remarks about John Terry's relationship and pretty public shaming for cheating in his wife? Surely that was more hurtful than a throw away remark about his skin colour? Certainly less personally scathing? And everytime a player pushes a referee its assualt! Even shouts in their face in an aggressive way!

[Gingerfinch]

Yes, forgetting whether it's pre-meditated, drink driving can and has wrecked lives.

[Making_Splinters]

When he campaigns for the similar punishments to be given to his brother then I'll take Les seriously.

This isn't about racism any more than positive discrimination isn't discrimination.

[mikesiva]

I believe that it would probably be more effective if black players formed their own association, which would lead to stronger statements being made against issues of racism.

Indeed... there is nothing more effective in promoting the issue of racial equality then forming a black only club in response to it....

it doesn't tend to be take the strong stances that black players want to see.

What would be acceptable? Beheading? Public flogging? Waterboarding?

Many black players see it as a half-way house, neither here nor there, which is why so many players did what Rio and Roberts did.

Give me some details. So far no one has actually given any examples or suggested any other things other than the FA are doing a poor job and we could do better....

If the FA had banned Terry for life or treated him even a tad more harshly then the FA would probably be dragged through the courts and lose.... after all, the court could prove Terry was guilty. How, therefore, can the FA and Kick It Out then do much.

Sorry Mike, any footballer going on about "more needs to be done" needs to put up some details or shut up frankly. I'm not hearing anything realistically constructive or grounded.

I see your point. Reminds me of the MOBO awards.

Actually, the MOBO awards is a good thing, because until they came along, the Brits only recognised white music, and neglected the achievements of black British musicians....

I don't understand the opposition to black players forming a group to agitate for what they feels needs to be done. Surely, we're not saying there's anything wrong with black players forming a lobby group, are we?

I'm not a black footballer, and not in a position to say what needs to be done, but I do believe that the best people to argue for something to be done are those who are on the receiving end, i.e. the front line, and that's black players. It's not only about Rio and Roberts - more than 30 black players were a part of last weekend's shirt-gate protest, and I fully support any move by them to group together to address what they feel is a growing problem.

And I believe Rio is the cousin of Les, not his brother....

The protest by the 30+ black players seems to have provoked a productive response from the PFA, though:

"Taylor’s six-point action plan calls for:

"1 Speeding up the process of dealing with reported racist abuse with close monitoring of any incidents.

"2 Consideration of stiffer penalties for racist abuse and to include an equality awareness programme for culprits and clubs involved.

"3 An English form of the 'Rooney rule' - introduced by the NFL in America in 2003 - to make sure qualified black coaches are on interview lists for job vacancies.

"4 The proportion of black coaches and managers to be monitored and any inequality or progress highlighted.

"5 Racial abuse to be considered gross misconduct in player and coach contracts (and therefore potentially a sackable offence).

"6 To not to lose sight of other equality issues such as gender, sexual orientation, disability, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and Asians in football."

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/9 ... z2AWGuImG7

I like those proposals....

[rich1uk]

I don't understand the opposition to black players forming a group to agitate for what they feels needs to be done. Surely, we're not saying there's anything wrong with black players forming a lobby group, are we?

so in order to tackle the problems with racial divisions in football you really think the answer is to form a breakaway group for black players only, which just highlights that those divisions exist ?

the only way the problem gets fixed is by everyone working together and showing that racism and discrimination, whether positive or negative is unacceptable

[mikesiva]

I don't understand the opposition to black players forming a group to agitate for what they feels needs to be done. Surely, we're not saying there's anything wrong with black players forming a lobby group, are we?

so in order to tackle the problems with racial divisions in football you really think the answer is to form a breakaway group for black players only, which just highlights that those divisions exist ?

the only way the problem gets fixed is by everyone working together and showing that racism and discrimination, whether positive or negative is unacceptable

It doesn't have to be a breakaway group....

This issue was highlighted by Roberts et al after it was complacently ignored by the FA, despite Roberts and Moore raising the issue time and time again. This action was needed to show the FA that it was more than just Roberts and Moore who had concerns:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 23714.html

"The specific concerns detailed by Roberts and 38-year-old Moore in the last year included the questionable size of the PFA's equality unit, which has been staffed for much of that time by only one officer, Simone Pound. A new recruit to the unit, Iffy Onuora, the former Gillingham forward, was appointed without consultation with Roberts and Moore, and the PFA has provided no idea about his precise role – a source of concern to Roberts and other players. The PFA chairman, Clarke Carlisle, who was not present at the meeting with the 30 players at the union's Manchester headquarters earlier this month. The players have also been urging the PFA to help overhaul the Kick It Out organisation, which they feel has lost its strength and authority. Other recommendations – which Roberts says were tabled repeatedly to the PFA management committee which comprises several players, Carlisle and Taylor – include stronger lobbying on the "Rooney rule", which requires clubs to interview minority candidates for head coaching and senior football operation opportunities; more staff and greater visibility at Kick It Out. He also wanted more Kick It Out work on getting black and ethnic minorities into coaching and management; and more legal support and expertise after alleged failings in the support of striker Mark McCammon, whom an industrial tribunal found was unfairly sacked by Gillingham. Roberts also wants greater independence for Kick It Out, which is part-funded by the Football Association and want the organisation to be more in touch with players. They also feel that its funding – of around £300,000 a year – reflects the complacency in the game about racism."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 23714.html

"However, there is at last a sense of action for some of the 30 players and ex-players so frustrated by issues like the size of the PFA equality unit and the lack of profile and resources going into Kick It Out that they attended a lobby of PFA headquarters two weeks ago. The Independent understands that no players have been approached by the human rights lawyer Peter Herbert and that suggestions he is trying to create a breakaway union for black players are wide of the mark. Instead, the idea is of a support organisation working within the football establishment, which would lobby for players' rights and pursue racial harmony in the same way that the National Black Police Association and the Society of Black Architects does."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 25415.html

Don't tell me you guys have a problem with the existence of the National Black Police Association, do you?

[rich1uk]

you still haven't answered the basic question tho mike

how does establishing an organisation based solely on race do anything to improve racial divisions ?

and yes i do have a problem with any organisation regardless of whether their motives are good or bad that restricts its membership based on race

[SaintPowelly]

Anton Ferdinand isnt a complete innocent victim, he made remarks about JTs private life that have no right to be talked about, wheres his ban.