Euro 2024

[sussexpob]

IGareth comes in and we have two finals, a semi final and a quarter final loss against France who were one decent finish away from winning the world cup. He's also been a massive factor in galvanising the team

How does one measure how much a squad is "galvanised"? It seems like one of those things people punt as an idea in lieu of any real analysis. We beat Panama and Tunisia not because they were crap, but because we were "galvanised"? I guess at this point you could say we get nice photos of Saka and Grealish playing in the bath on blow up unicorns together, but then again we live in an instagram/social media era, so its not like there is a comparison to other eras because that access behind the scenes didn't exist.

We haven't beat a top rated side in the Southgate era in an important match. Southgate got at least 3 of the easiest runs you could ever hope for in major tournaments including a final run which was essentially at home. And yet, we never beat a top side.

Where is this air of squad harmony and galvanisation coming from? Because it really does appear in four major tournaments we have been knocked out by the first good side we played by being passive, meek and letting the game fade away.

[sussexpob]

If he does leave then he would have done a bloody decent job and given me better times than Capello, McClaren, Roy and even Sven has.

If you remove all context from any debate, then yeah...whoopie Southgate.

Like we can sit here and say that Capello was useless in comparison to Southgate. Capello won 10 league championships, created arguably the best team ever in the early 90s Milan team in an era where Serie A was the strongest league ever to exist (with European Cups also, he also lost one to a Marseille team who's chairman ended in prison for proven bribery of buying matches, in a game with serious questions about officiating, so I think I can credit him with deserving an extra one).... and even won a championship with an unfancied Roma team that is often considered one of, if not the, greatest achievement in Serie A history..... Now, do we think Capello was really incapable of taking this brilliant England team anywhere, or judging on the fact its literally the only semi-blemish on a career of immense achievement, we were not actually that good in the slightest???

And by extension, do you really believe a man who, given players of quality does nothing but win, would do worse given Southgate's team than a man who has, quite literally, never defeated any top side in a match during the whole of his management career.

Because I tell you now, thats quite an insane assumption to make. You cannot compare managers given infinitely different circumstances. It would be like saying Bobby Campbell failed in 1989-90 season for having Chelsea return from relegation and finish 5th, because 15 years later Mourinho with a team bought by a Russian oil money billionaire managed to win back to back titles with the same team. Of course, it would be mad to do that because the circumstances are not the same.. and neither is havingn Emile Heskey as your best winger comparable to leaving Gordon on the bench unused because you have 4 others apparently better.

[sussexpob]

The Sven v Southgate comparison is another one you can dig deeper into.

In 2002, we beat Argentina. Southgate has never beaten a side of that level in his career. There is no comparison. After beating the Argies, we then smashed Denmark and then played a Brazil team considered their best arguably ever. That team had 4 ballon d'or winners in it and one player who finished second in voting. Has an International side ever fielded so many Ballon D'Or winners together? I'd guess not. The 3 R's attack is considered the greatest to ever play international football... we lost the game 2-1 and were not outplayed or outclassed.

In 2004, we would have beaten a world class France team had it not been for the referee not sending off Mikael Silvestre for the clearest red card ever. Beckham missed a penalty late to win the game 2-0, and then Zidane/David James happened, but the eventual loss was better than we have played against any Southgate matches against a top side.

We then lost to Portugal on penalties twice. People seem to remember these teams as terrible, but Deco was runner up in the ballon d'or in 2004 and considered the best attacking midfielder in the game. Figo won the ballon d'or a couple of years before. Carvalho won world's best defender in 2004. And then of course there is the matter of the second best player to play the sport in 2006.

[Durhamfootman]

passive, meek and letting the game fade away.

this

[Durhamfootman]

Now, do we think Capello was really incapable of taking this brilliant England team anywhere

Capello just couldn't get on with the England team. He couldn't communicate with them, I don't think he even tried to learn English. I always had the impression that the players didn't like him, were a bit afraid of his reaction to things and consequently played like they had the weight of the world on their shoulders. They did at least seem to like Southgate, seemed to respect him and did try to play for him even though his instructions were almost always counter-intuitive to a group of players who just played a different brand of football whenever they didn't have an England shirt on

[Durhamfootman]

The Sven v Southgate comparison is another one you can dig deeper into.

under Sven, we wuz always robbed..... as a nation I think we like it that way.... we can accept that.... it feels normal..... pretty much all most of us had ever known. Never really having a go until we have no other choice just breeds awful, frustrating, joyless football..... anti football. Not for me, I'm afraid

and ultimately it always failed, even if it did get us deeper into tournaments

[sussexpob]

Now, do we think Capello was really incapable of taking this brilliant England team anywhere

Capello just couldn't get on with the England team. He couldn't communicate with them, I don't think he even tried to learn English. I always had the impression that the players didn't like him, were a bit afraid of his reaction to things and consequently played like they had the weight of the world on their shoulders. They did at least seem to like Southgate, seemed to respect him and did try to play for him even though his instructions were almost always counter-intuitive to a group of players who just played a different brand of football whenever they didn't have an England shirt on

You can make probably two convincing all-time world XIs from former players Capello has managed, who speak about him in nothing but the highest terms.

Meanwhile, legendary players like Dean Ashton are very vocal about the fact he is a total nob for making England players train during a training session (yes, he did literally say that). Or Emile Heskey being upset he made players put down their phones during squad team social times. Or upset seemingly the whole squad for not allowing them to eat rubbish and put ketchup on everything (literally about 16 players in the squad complained about him banning putting ketchup on bolognaise).

I guess that is everything you don't want in a manager, isnt it? Making players practice and get fit, making them eat healthy, making them respect their team mates.... Good job John Terry had the grand idea to have McDonalds ordered for everyone on the sly, that will teach them.

Bet all those squares like Cafu, Thuram, Maldini, Baresi, Buffon and god knows who else must have felt like right idiots knowing our lads stuck two fingers up to the prat and all have a munch of a Big Mac at 2am when the boss was sleeping. Of course, the others won loads of stuff and World Cups and god knows what else.... but who needs to win, ay?

At what point do we maybe have to entertain the thought that maybe the guy who has done nothing but win throughout the whole of his career using these methods to train some of the greatest players who ever player... might er... not be the problem in this equation, and maybe its the senior players quaffing Big Macs in a car park during the night that might be to blame?

[sussexpob]

I guess its typical of England's luck that Capello hit at the wrong time. The Chelsea v United Champions League final was a real turning point for English football, with Liverpol winning the competition before and then an all English final, it was the moment the PL seized its place ahead of Italian football and became on par with La Liga in money and attention (and then slowly beat it).

This was a bridge between two eras. Its the first era players become legit superstar millionaires across the board, with Englad being the richest league. But its before the era of constant social media attention and wall to wall camera phones capturing every move you which tends to curb a lot of toxic behaviour that created.

Gerrard was punching lads in clubs, Cole was getting himself arrested, Terry was racial abusing people and shagging his team-mates wives, Wazza was bashing the granny out of some grannies, Becks was wearing dressed and changing his hair all the time, Lampard was doing sex tapes and abusing American tourists with 9/11 jokes, Rio was in the same sex tape and getting busted for drugs, Heskey was out shagging lap dancers while the mother of his child was at home....

This era of England football is just full of some really self-worthy trashy individuals.

[alfie]

I'm a bit split on Southgate

One one hand prior to his reign, two semi finals since 1966, 5-6 tournaments we didn't even qualify for, turgid Football like in 2006 and 2010, not to mentions Roy's reign between 2012-2016. Group stage exits like in 1988 with three losses, consisting of a pre euro warm up against Aylesbury Utd, which was played as a confidence booster for Bobby's boys. Plus penalty shoot-out losses galore, including two on the trot to Portugal with our 'golden generation'
Gareth comes in and we have two finals, a semi final and a quarter final loss against France who were one decent finish away from winning the world cup. He's also been a massive factor in galvanising the team.

On the other hand. He has had nice draws, the Football isn't always the best and we lose when we come up against a good team. He also has a array of attacking talent that we've never had before.

A better manager would have and will do better but who? Potter? Not convinced. Poch? Possibly.

If he does leave then he would have done a bloody decent job and given me better times than Capello, McClaren, Roy and even Sven has.

I am of a similar mind to Ginger. But I won't bother trying to argue justification for fear of encouraging more floods of contrary "evidence" that he's been a total waste of space : opinions are obviously set and have been for some time.

Suspect he has had enough and will choose to exit ; in which case I fervently hope the new man - whoever that may be - does succeed in taking the team to the next level. But if he chooses to stay (as it seems the FA would prefer) I won't have a problem with it - and would merely hope he might look to take a somewhat more attacking mindset to the next competition. Anyway for all his flaws I do admire what he did to lift the team from the lows that immediately preceded his grasp of the poisoned chalice , and would give him a round of applause on departure.

[sussexpob]

All academic in the end.

Southgate has quit

[sussexpob]

I am of a similar mind to Ginger. But I won't bother trying to argue justification for fear of encouraging more floods of contrary "evidence" that he's been a total waste of space : opinions are obviously set and have been for some time.

Suspect he has had enough and will choose to exit ; in which case I fervently hope the new man - whoever that may be - does succeed in taking the team to the next level. But if he chooses to stay (as it seems the FA would prefer) I won't have a problem with it - and would merely hope he might look to take a somewhat more attacking mindset to the next competition. Anyway for all his flaws I do admire what he did to lift the team from the lows that immediately preceded his grasp of the poisoned chalice , and would give him a round of applause on departure.

I disassociate as much with the criticism of England's approach in the Spain game as much as I did with those proclaiming Southgate a genius after the semi-final. Listening to idiots like Adrian Durham rant on about us not trying to attack and just lying down to be beaten .... does he think the manager just presses a big red button labelled "ATTACK" and thats it? You instantly teleport the ball in to the Spain final third with them under immense pressure? There is more to defending that just sitting back, and there is more to attacking then throwing on 7 strikers and telling your team go score a goal.

England did try to attack in this tournament, but the problem was they got the ball to the final third and then didn't have a clue what to do with it. No overlaps, no shifts to create space, no real vision on how to play. The key to management is understanding the grey and the nuances in play to create the mismatches. Southgate was setup to be"TOO" attacking as Spain scored a second. You can have 4 Pele's waiting in the final third to smash their defence to pieces, but when your midfield is left 3 v 1 in the centre the net effect is those players have to drop out of areas on the pitch they do damage to try to win the central battle, and you end up with attacking players defending badly. When you win the ball, there is not a playmaker with that tight space ability to recycle and launch the attack. You end up punting it out of trouble and letting the next wave hit... you dont survivie for long doing that against teams the quality of Spain.

You need the ball to attack after all. You can fault England for a range of things in this tournament, but at the end of the day its simple execution and tactical fundamentals based around positioning and what skills you bring to blend together which is really the problem. In past tournaments it was the tendency to dig a trench when teams wanted to attack us, in this one we did try to attack.

I still really cant fathom why, in a tournament where England really needed a classic 8 badly, at no stage in 8 matches did we play the Ballon D'Or favourite who has played that position for 4 years to a world class level, and instead played a right back, a 10 and a 4 who only fouls to build play around the CM.

Southgate can press his big read button for attack, defence or whatever, but the intent means nothing really. If you cant understand what a deep lying playmakers role in a team is at this level of football, and assume its for a right back to launch hollywood balls 80 yards from goal around in the air, then you will never beat a good team. Literally never... they will happily take the ball back and punish you for it.

[sussexpob]

Trying to be as sympathetic to Southgate as I can, I guess its not his fault that a lot of English footballing culture has not caught up with the times. We still have a public educated in the game by the like's of Alan Shearer, who can't articulate a single worthwhile tactical thought on the game, or Rio Ferdinand, whose views on football are so infantile I can barely comprehend how the man played Sunday league football, let alone be one of the greatest CB I ever seen play. Everything in the end will dilute down to the simplest of stuff. England didn't attack, England didn't want it, England need to tackle harder... like its 1976 again and the last few decades never happened.

In that way, I guess Southgate does in many ways represent a decades long problem with the game.... we treat everything so unscientifically in terms of how we view skills, we have no tactical visionaries in the game. When is the last time an English coach worked at the top level and was successful with anything but the most dour stuff?

Other countries have great managers who treat football like a science. They learn in classrooms, write academic papers... we get Big Sam putting 10k behind a bar to get the team pissed for morale, and parking buses. Big Sam is one of the best English managers of his era, and yet you hear his former players say his tactical blueprint on how to play was "once passed the half way line, do what the f*** you want".

Lets just accept there isnt a talent good enough for a squad of this potential in English football. Hire a foreign manager..... I know one former Liverpool manager who wanted to cut down his workload ....

I would quite literally send Jurgen Klopp a blank cheque in the post and ask him to return it signed.

[Durhamfootman]

just spotted that Sir Gareth has quit. He should have gone after the final defeat to Italy really, because then he'd have left with his reputation largely intact. It was the repetitive regurgitation of the same mistakes that lost him large sections of England fans. As if he learnt nothing. Still...... hands off Howe.... I'm reasonably sanguine that the FA will pick one of their own like Lampard or Gerrard and the cycle will begin again.

This is a decent piece that in some measure reflects my personal view of Southgate, although the tactical deficiencies are perhaps a bit understated for my taste, but there is a lot in here that I agree with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/ar ... 86pl8v9j8o

[Durhamfootman]

I could see them going foreign again though, but I guess it would have to be someone who'd successfully managed a PL club in the past. They won't want to go full Capello again, imo

Klopp would hold out for the Germany job, I reckon.

which reminds me.... I remember Ancelotti saying that the easiest game he had to manage was the final against Liverpool, because (as he put it) Liverpool had such a strong playing style (which I took to mean that they were completely predicable) that he knew exactly how Liverpool would play and which players would start, making his job of countering that really simple. The same could be said about Southgate

[Gingerfinch]

I could see them going foreign again though, but I guess it would have to be someone who'd successfully managed a PL club in the past. They won't want to go full Capello again, imo

Klopp would hold out for the Germany job, I reckon.

which reminds me.... I remember Ancelotti saying that the easiest game he had to manage was the final against Liverpool, because (as he put it) Liverpool had such a strong playing style (which I took to mean that they were completely predicable) that he knew exactly how Liverpool would play and which players would start, making his job of countering that really simple. The same could be said about Southgate

is that the same Liverpool that beat them in 2005?