Euro 2020 (21)

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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:31 am

yuppie wrote: Gareth has done a great job of bringing in the youth. the next manager will have an abundance of players to choose from who are young and already have a lot of caps behind them.


Nothing to do with Southgate. All the players he has picked who are young have been established as regular starters at club level, and are products of those teams and their managers. Each youngster in this squad is there by merit and is widely accepted as being the best options - Southgate hasnt picked one youngster out of left field out of his own intuition. He simply adopted players at a time England have a lot of young talent coming through.

Durhamfootman wrote:It's a pity that he's tactically clueless. That's why he needs an astute asst manager to tell him what's going on and how to change things around


Considering an international manager has no time to train players technically and improve them, isnt 99% of the role picking the tactics to suit your squad and drilling them to play that way? If he's incapable of that, then he's incapable of the job. The only thing that is left is motivating, but if you are hiring someone to do all the football tactics, then why not just hire a great manager and pay the world's best motivational speakers to walk around telling the players he is great?

The idea a professional football manager at the top level needs someone else to do all the job because he is incapable is pretty laughable. Its like me hiring a guy just to tell jokes, then hiring another to sit next to him and do his job.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:40 am

Is Southgate even that great a person manager too?

He made a big deal about dropping Foden and Greenwood for trying to shag Icelandic models, then picked Grealish and Walker straight after both of them had breached lockdown rules without mentioning it.

He dropped Sterling for an issue most people had considered a storm in a teacup, volunteering to air the teams dirty laundry in public while players lined up to say "this happens, it was nothing, hands were shaken".... then picked Maguire who had just apparently beaten up a Greek policeman, only to then be forced to drop him after being found guilty and having to return to Greece for sentencing. Meanwhile, Reece James got sent off for dissent on his debut and never missed a squad since, while Southgate lectures others about needing to be disciplined.

His man management is all over the place. England have had 3 red cards in less than a year..... which is nearly 25% of their total in history. Speaks of great discipline.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:41 am

sussexpob wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:When Capello was in charge, all I wanted was someone to come in and show a bit of pride in the job. Southgate has done that but is too negative when it comes to the 90 minutes. He is though a good man, who I'm happy to have in charge of England.


"Showing Pride" seems like such an empty concept, it doesn't mean anything. Are you doubting the professionalism of a man who has 11 Serie A winners medals, 2 La Liga titles, 7 domestic cups, and a European Cup? Sorry, you dont win all that in a career without being insanely driven.

Being a good man means nothing in the pressure of the big moments. In Southgate's three biggest moments of his football career he has fallen apart - The defining moment of his England playing days was to pass a penalty to the keeper, knocking out England in the only tournament in my lifetime they have been actual favorites. The biggest moment of his club career, he had one of the worst games I have ever seen in a club final, on the way to Sevilla absolutely embarrassing Middlesbrough 4-0 in the UEFA Cup Final. It could have been 12-0. And the biggest moment of his management career, he single handedly blew England's chances by changing his tactics to allow a Croatia team, who had been outplayed for 45 minutes, to regroup and attack a totally passive England team.

He is also as boring and uninspiring. Does he show any passion at all? The only flair he displays is in his choice of dapper clothing


Capello's team was just as boring and the man imo didn't seem to care too much about the players or fans. At least Southgate does and Southgate has done better than Capello did with lesser players. Southgate is no match for Capello as a manager but I'd rather have him than a past it has been who perfected bland Football in 2010.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:45 pm

sussexpob wrote:Is Southgate even that great a person manager too?

He made a big deal about dropping Foden and Greenwood for trying to shag Icelandic models, then picked Grealish and Walker straight after both of them had breached lockdown rules without mentioning it.

He dropped Sterling for an issue most people had considered a storm in a teacup, volunteering to air the teams dirty laundry in public while players lined up to say "this happens, it was nothing, hands were shaken".... then picked Maguire who had just apparently beaten up a Greek policeman, only to then be forced to drop him after being found guilty and having to return to Greece for sentencing. Meanwhile, Reece James got sent off for dissent on his debut and never missed a squad since, while Southgate lectures others about needing to be disciplined.

His man management is all over the place. England have had 3 red cards in less than a year..... which is nearly 25% of their total in history. Speaks of great discipline.


You can get a red card these days for saying 'boo' , so comparison there!

I do agree with his values and handing of certain incidents. He could have most definitely handled them better.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:47 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:At least Southgate does and Southgate has done better than Capello did with lesser players


The big squad debate in 2010 was whether Carlton Cole or Bobby Zamora should have gone. :lmao Are you really telling me Capello had a better squad?

Kane v Rooney - Kane wins every time. He's nearly caught up Rooney's PL career tally in half the games, and has the highest goal to game ratio in PL history. Rooney was also injured in the Bayern Munich game in March of 2010, and acknowledged wasnt fit in that tournament. He didnt score a single goal for 3-4 months, Kane is coming off a golden boot year.

Goalie
James/Green/Hart v Pickford - James was 40 in this WC. Hart was on loan in the Championship. Green was seen as the stand out keeper and threw ball into his own net - this was seen as the low point of English keeping history. Pickford aint no world beater, but he won man of the match for his penalty saving and kept England in front v Colombia. 2-0 Southgate

Defence
Rio was injured. Terry had just been blasted for shagging Wayne Bridge's wife and was stripped of the captaincy. Cole had broken his ankle in February and had missed the end of the season going into the tournament cold. Ledley King was hadnt been fit for an international match for 3 years, and he retired in his 20s due to those injuries not long after this tournament. Glen Johnson had a widely publicised falling out with Roy Hodgson around this time because Hodgson said his performances were not of standard for Liverpool. 2 years before this, Upson couldnt get a game in the Championship for Birmingham. Dawson wasnt originally in the squad, but was called up due to injuries just before the tournament. Wayne Bridge would have gone, but couldnt be in the same room as JT.

Terry is better than either current centre back, but Maguire and Stones are better than any of the available partners from 2010. Ashley Cole wasnt fit, so Id take any fit left back from now. Kyle Walker or Reece James is head and shoulders better than Glen Johnson, who was also not on form as well. 3-0 Southgate.

Central Midfield
Not going to argue here. A half fit Gareth Barry was better than Declan Rice. Lampard and Gerrard are better than Mount and Phillips at this point.

Wings
Joe Cole was done with injury - he was released by Chelsea before this tournament on a free and was so unfit, he played 26 total games (not starts!) in his next 3 seasons at Liverpool. Aaron Lennon got injured in December and didnt start a game the rest of the season. Wright Phillips couldnt get in the CIty team (he played 7 times in the following 2 seasons, and was fully fit) as a mark of his quality. Milner had already transfered to playing CM for Villa as he had no pace so wasnt really a winger at this point, and never played there again full time.

Any of England massive range of options in this position would walk into this team as the star of the position. 4-1 Southgate

Depth
Goalkeeper - The second choice of Capello had just accepted a contract at Bristol City, a lower league championship team and was 40 years old. Southgates back up was included in the 2020 PFA team of the year. The third choice of both played for either Manchester teams but couldnt get a game. Hart was playing the Championship, while Henderson was loaned to Sheffield United in the Prem for a season to widespread acclaim. Henderson last season played 20 games for United, who finished 2nd. Southgate 5-1

Defence - Neither team had international class depth in CB that was fit at the tournament. England current stock of full backs is widely seen as a golden generation, and the manager couldnt even decide on which 4 or 5 right backs to take.
Southgate 6-1

Midfield
Carrick would walk into this team with whichever of Gerrard, Barry and Lampard you didnt play. Mount is better than any other AM England had (because they didnt have any at all) - Ill give Capello that 6-2

Forwards
Dafoe/Heskey/Carlton Cole and Bobby Zamora v the so far cast of non-starters of Sancho, Rashford, Grealish, DCL and Saka. The fact the immensely talented Hudson-Odoi cant get near this squad (he'd have started for Capello) shows you the sheer depth her.

I make that 6-3 Southgate. Comfortably a better side.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:30 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:You can get a red card these days for saying 'boo' , so comparison there!


The amount of red cards has dropped dramatically in recent years in football, and I believe if you take the 1994 WC rule changes where the modern day point of referring started (like the instant red card for feet leaving the ground), the last 2-3 years have been the lowest red card given years in all top leagues. The punishment being higher actually leads to less red card fouls, not more.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:12 pm

Any chance Czechs and England will waltz out a draw in their fixture to see both through?

From Sussex's assessment of the present England side I'm now expecting quite a lot from them.

Wasn't there a thing about drinking the alcohol of the country you're playing while watching?. Easy enough v Czechs and Scots, not so much v Croatia. Nightmare if you draw North Macedonia.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:41 pm

Southgate is no match for Capello as a manager but I'd rather have him than a past it has been


Id argue that the biggest change in modern football has been to the full back position, who are now expected to not only defend, but have the pace and stamina to get up and down the line and add the overlap in attacking play, contributing to assists and attacking play. The two players often used as an example of where this trend started? Cafu and Roberto Carlos.

Roberto Carlos was a centre forward, then a wide forward until 1996, when Fabio Capello bought him. He changed him and asked him to play what we now would see as a standard left back role, but at the time was revolutionary. He retired still widely acknowledged as the greatest LB ever.

Cafu was a defensive midfielder who had been bought by Real Zaragoza, was sold after one disappointing season back to another Brazilian team, who then sold him without playing a match to another. Capello turned him into a right back version of Carlos, and retired the undisputed best player of the position ever.

The past it has been who's tactical legacy is used by every single team in the world as a standard to this day. Go watch 2000 era Roma with Candela and Cafu roaming the byline.... it will look familiar because its modern football, but at the time? No one was playing like that!!

Durhamfootman wrote:whereas Capello was supposedly pretty tactically astute, but the players didn't like him, they hated his methods, they were afraid for their careers most of the time and so never felt able to play at their best, he wouldn't learn English and nobody was allowed to talk to him or bother him in any way..... whilst salting away a fortune in filthy lucre


Capello is arguably the best manager of all time. I am inclined to think if Capello couldnt bring success to England, no one could have at the time. Looking at that side for 2010 for instance, jsut comparing it to Spain and Germany and thinking we were on the same planet of quality is frankly ridiculous. We were nowhere near. It does irk me (Can you tell) that English press and fans speak about Capello so dimly. He has nowt to prove to England fans, he walked the walk, talked the talk..... England will be a minor blemish on a glittering career.

The players didn't like him, but then again, that was their problem. Plenty of players didnt like Capello; the same people who call him a difficult and socially inept n*bhead usually follow it by saying if it werent for him, they'd have been nobodies, and that he got the best out of them. I mean just look at how many of the recent Ballon D'or all time greatest XI are players that peaked under him, or were given a chance buy him. His imprint is all over this all time list. Check his career span for Ballon D'or winners or runners up too... the list is outsounding. Everywhere he went, he made players better, but not only better, all time greatest better.

Yet, we get some reject like Ben Foster, who couldnt get a game at United, and during the period he talks about also got dropped by the mega side of Birmingham, now troving around low budget laddy radio studios making videos that are widely shared, laughing about how nasty a guy Capello is and openly mocking him??? Great Ben. Maybe if you had acted a bit more of an adult and accepted the criticism you might have learned something - a few months with Capello and Buffon ended up 2nd in the Ballon D'or voting, a world cup winner, and a candidate for player of the tournament. You ended up at West Brom bouncing between divisions. Well done to you.

In fact, the players criticism verged on ridiculousness. And the press couldnt make their minds up; Capello was stuck in 1956 with his methods, but at the same time he was a nasty man for not allowing his team to eat unhealthy crap for breakfast. A dinosaur for insisting on modern preparations and standards for professional sportspeople? Isnt this, er......, actually ahead of the time if this wasnt standard? Can you imagine Messi tucking into a full English before a WC game? And the other grievance was Terry, who seemed to forget he shagged his team mates wife and kept moaning at the press that he wasnt captain because he was the born leader.... a born leader who a few months later decided to racial abuse his centre back partners (and de facto international captain) brother. Hurray for teamwork John, way to prove a point. Heskey actually came out after he retired and said Capello was strict, but it was the players being the ar*eholes. Im inclined to believe him.

I mean, is there a more difficult and outrageous footballer in the world than Zlatan? The only manager he talks warmly about is Capello; says he personally loved the no bull, direct approach. Acknowledges it made him as a player. Totti was notoriously difficult as a youth coming through, he had loads of high profile bust ups with him...says the same. Maldini.... same.

Ruud Gullit once got dragged off a bus by him, and still talks about him with respect. In fact, Gullit had the same opinion as me...if Capello cant make you win, no one will.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:55 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:From Sussex's assessment of the present England side I'm now expecting quite a lot from them


Its the predictable narrative of English International football isnt it? The expectation, confidence and pressure in the build up that the team will win, but then when someone seriously suggests England have a great team and a chance, the pulling down of everyone and insisting we really arent that good, and the acceptance of mediocrity as long as we are still hanging in the tournament. And then the acceptance disappears in blind vitriolic hate after we do get knocked out, because when finally get knocked out, we never should have got knocked out and its all such a failure. About 2 weeks after the tournament you finally get some honest reflection that slowly wears off, and history after one year has passed remembers that every single England team was immense and was there to win, and that not winning was a failure.

Sod all that. While I can get carried a little away inside a tournament, if we are honest, I dont think we have had a team to win a major tournament since 2006 at least. 1996 and 1998 still feel like lost opportunities. 2000-2006 we had the personal, but never the chemistry, and always a weakness.

Belgium and French bookies had England 6/1 favourites. The German coverage at the start pointed out its basically England's home tournament, and they should win it. The dutch coverage had us second favourites, 13/2 to France's 6/1. So very tight. The rest of Europe talks about our team as being unbelievable - and the depth of the squad in attacking areas in undoubtedly the best in my lifetime.

We have to target the win, and for once, not winning would be a failure. A losing final would be acceptable. Not making the final is nothing to salvage territory.

The manager however is not even a manager, has no tactical awareness and freezes in the big moments. So we probably wont win.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:29 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Any chance Czechs and England will waltz out a draw in their fixture to see both through?

they'll both be trying to avoid finishing top, just like England/Belgium 3 years ago
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:14 pm

Capello was a great manager but way past his best come 2009 and came for the money. Hiring him is like us give Rafa Benitez the job now. No matter how you play it, Capello stunk as our manager with both players and fans. The Football was dire as was the moral. The stories that have came out since have made the great Capello seem like a dictator.
Southgate is not perfect, far from it but he at least wants the job for the right reasons.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:15 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:You can get a red card these days for saying 'boo' , so comparison there!


The amount of red cards has dropped dramatically in recent years in football, and I believe if you take the 1994 WC rule changes where the modern day point of referring started (like the instant red card for feet leaving the ground), the last 2-3 years have been the lowest red card given years in all top leagues. The punishment being higher actually leads to less red card fouls, not more.


Any proof?
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:22 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Any chance Czechs and England will waltz out a draw in their fixture to see both through?

they'll both be trying to avoid finishing top, just like England/Belgium 3 years ago


I'm tipping England to sneak a win. The last 16 will be a toughie but hey, gotta beat the best...........
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:10 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:You can get a red card these days for saying 'boo' , so comparison there!


The amount of red cards has dropped dramatically in recent years in football, and I believe if you take the 1994 WC rule changes where the modern day point of referring started (like the instant red card for feet leaving the ground), the last 2-3 years have been the lowest red card given years in all top leagues. The punishment being higher actually leads to less red card fouls, not more.


Any proof?


https://www.myfootballfacts.com/premier ... ne-tables/

Find all the premier league years there. Last 5 years are all lower than anything for 25 iah years. Pre-1994 WC when FIFA changed the rules can be ignored.
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Re: Euro 2020 (21)

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Fair enough, that did surprise me.

That does not though detract from the popular opinion that Capello was dire as our manager. Those three group games were as bad as they could get, then came the Germany game. Bringing up previous trophies is not really relevant either. Southgate didn't deserve the job but he has done pretty well thus far and has given us more than Capello ever did.
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